When an admissions dean meets a high school principal in a hotel lobby at a national admissions conference, they have a lot to discuss! John Durante of Syosset High School in New York, host of the College Admissions Process Podcast, reunites with Lee Coffin as they continue their impromptu lobby conversation on air.
When an admissions dean meets a high school principal in a hotel lobby at a national admissions conference, they have a lot to discuss! John Durante of Syosset High School in New York, host of the College Admissions Process Podcast, reunites with Lee Coffin as they continue their impromptu lobby conversation on air.
Season 10 Episode Six
When a Dean Meets a High School Principal in a Hotel Lobby...
Lee Coffin:
From Hanover, New Hampshire, I'm Lee Coffin, Dartmouth's Vice President and Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid, and this is Admissions Beat.
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So two weeks ago, I was in Minneapolis for the annual conference of the National Association for College Admission Counseling, and we did a round table episode a couple of weeks ago. I was literally on the way to the round table. I left my hotel room. I'm in the elevator. There's a woman in the elevator who turned out to be the guidance counselor. And as soon as she saw me, she said, "You're the podcast guy." And I was like, "Yeah, I guess." And then we started chatting and we went down a couple floors and it stopped and another person got on and he went, "Huh, you're the podcast guy." And this week, my guest is that second man in the elevator who turned out to be a high school principal on Long Island who also has a podcast about college admission.
And the conversation we had in the lobby was fun and was going in lots of different directions. And I said, "Hey, let's hold this thought and reconvene on the pod so that listeners get to hear what happens when a dean meets a high school principal in a hotel lobby." So when we come back, we'll say hi to the principal and hear what he has to say about life in the admission lane at a school filled with high-achieving kids. We'll be right back.
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I am really excited to welcome to Admission Beat. A new friend, John Durante, is the principal at Syosset High School in New York, and we met two weeks ago. Hi, John.
John Durante:
Hey, Lee, how are you? So great to see you at NACAC and it's a true honor to be here on your podcast. How are you doing today?
Lee Coffin:
There are times of the year where I channeled Dory from Finding Nemo and I just hum, "Just keep swimming. Just keep swimming." And I'm not quite there yet. Once we cross the early decision deadline, it's like the year goes into turbo and off we go. So I thought we would recreate the conversation we were having at the Hyatt Regency and let listeners hear what happens quite literally when a dean and a high school principal cross paths at a conference and start chatting. Just to introduce you to the audience, so I mentioned you're the principal at Syosset High School. Tell us where that is.
John Durante:
So Syosset High School, as you may be able to tell from my accent, is in New York. It's in Long Island, New York. My wife and I actually grew up in Brooklyn in the city, but I've been at Syosset High School now. This the start of my 33rd year, my 17th year as principal. So I've been there my entire career.
Lee Coffin:
So you were a teacher before you became principal?
John Durante:
Yes. I was a teacher of world languages. Then I became the dean. I was the assistant principal for eight years. And again, this is year 17 as principal. In some schools, if you do a bad job, Lee, they just keep promoting you, that's all. So that's what I always joke about.
Lee Coffin:
Well, I love that you started as a world languages teacher because like me, people who are deans weren't born a dean. I was an admission officer for many years before I became a dean. And I think like you, you carry that origin story with you. You're probably always a teacher while you're sitting in the principal's office.
John Durante:
I'm definitely always a teacher and I definitely always try to help students and families. If I can help you with plan A, I always look to plan B to truly try to help people. And having gone through the college admissions process and high school years with my own daughters who are now 25 and 23, I definitely look at it even more so nowadays from the perspective of the parent. Always looking to help. If I can't help for whatever reason, I always take the time to explain why and perhaps things that we can do in the future.
Lee Coffin:
For listeners around the world who may not know Syosset, New York, so we're thinking suburb of New York City so people can commute from Syosset into Manhattan, but Syosset is best known for its top-ranked public school system. It ranks among the best public school districts in New York State, which says a lot because New York has wonderful schools all across it. But John, what I found so interesting when I was poking around Syosset on the internet was this fact. You have an incredible amount of alumni who are well-known.
John Durante:
We do.
Lee Coffin:
Syosset High School has an Oscar winner, a Tony winner, a Grammy winner, and a WNBA champion among many others. But just that's remarkable, John.
John Durante:
It is remarkable. And by the way, none of those people happen to be the current high school principal. Despite the principal, Syosset has a lot of success and we have people like Idina Menzel who obviously started her career or became very famous in Rent, Natalie Portman, Judd Apatow, and the list goes on and on and on. And I can tell you that Judd Apatow, Idina Menzel, they have visited Syosset and it really was an honor and pleasure to meet them both because frankly, I'm their age. I was not their principal when they were in Syosset, but it's wonderful to see people as successful as they are who took the time to come back and to give back to their community where they started. So absolutely, we do have a lot of famous alum.
Lee Coffin:
It's amazing. Well, Idina Menzel, I mean, she starts in Rent. She goes on to play Elphaba in Wicked, wins the Tony. I mean, she's luminous in that Broadway space. Natalie Portman, of course, is the Oscar winner. You sit at the desk at a high school that has produced some noteworthy people.
John Durante:
We have a very educated community. People move to the community for the schools, and so they want what's best for their children. And frankly, so do we. So it truly is, like I said, an honor and pleasure to work in a community that is pro-education. When we have open house, I mean, we have to find additional parking off campus because everyone is coming.
Lee Coffin:
Well, and one of the reasons I wanted to have you on an episode is I think a lot of our listeners live in towns like Syosset, suburban communities where most of the seniors go to a four-year college, but what percentage of your seniors typically go four-year?
John Durante:
So we have 99% of our students that go to college, 100% graduate, and it's about 92% that go to a four-year school, 7% go to a two-year school.
Lee Coffin:
That's rare air. This podcast is about selective college admissions. I mean, you are in one of the epicenters, a high school, but more broadly a community that cares about what we're talking about. I mean, the journey from ninth grade to 12th grade at Syosset and the outcome it produces is something that matters to your families and that you have to navigate, I would think.
John Durante:
Without a doubt. And I want to give a big shout-out to my counseling department, how awesome my counseling department is. There are evening programs for every grade level, whether you're in ninth, 10th, 11th, and even 12th grade, multiple opportunities to meet with counselors during the day, at night, over the summer, holding your hand through the college process, but frankly, anything else that you need throughout your four years of high school and beyond. They really help you see the pathways through college and even career.
Lee Coffin:
Well, so I would call you an expert in the way a school navigates college admissions. So I want to have two tracks here. One is start with Syosset and places like it and advice we might give to families as they navigate that kind of environment. But then also for listeners who might be saying, "Well, that sounds lovely. I live in a very rural community where that's not true." What I'm going to try and do is glean for you some tips so that if you don't have the resources John's describing, you could imagine them and empower yourself to do the same thing. But let's start at Syosset. So what's it like to be the principal of such a high-powered high school?
John Durante:
Well, it truly is wonderful. Like I said, I was 22 years old when I was hired as a world language teacher. I had just graduated with my bachelor's degree, but really what's been amazing is the team that we have developed over the years, from our central office, from our building administration, everyone truly works together, gets along, and we all have that same mission, and the mission is very simple. We are there to provide the best that we can for the four short years that we have the students at Syosset. It's not perfect. There are definitely days that are tougher than others, but we believe in that mission. When you're working together with a team of like-minded people to help students and families navigate those four years, it's not just the college process, that's a big part of it, but when you're there to help people, there's no profession and in my opinion, that's more noble.
Lee Coffin:
How do you manage the anxiety that has to live amidst all of this and bubbling under the surface, like, you want excellence, you expect an excellent outcome. How do you lead that? What do you say to parents to reassure them that they're in good hands, but also this is how the process will unfold and things to keep in mind?
John Durante:
Well, I think it's education. One of the things that I do, as I know you know Lee, is that I also have a podcast where I interview college admissions professionals, and that's made public to the Syosset community and to anyone that wants to listen. Each episode is basically of me interviewing a college admissions rep about their school, but more importantly, let's pull the curtain back. You say you test-optional, fine. What's the percentage of students that you admitted that did not submit test scores? And so, those are the kinds of things that we do in Syosset to just try to be ahead of the curve and to educate our families, really trying to innovate, really trying to give our families more. That's what we do in Syosset.
Lee Coffin:
Well, it sounds like you also try and be proactive. It's like anticipating where people are worrying. I started this podcast 10 seasons ago as a way of lowering the volume. I had two parents over the weekend send me emails saying, "I'm listening, I'm following you. I love that you don't get hysterical. Like, you keep this really kind of even-keeled voice and perspective and college admission is doable." There might be headlines that say it isn't, or you may have your sight set on an outcome that's harder to get than not. I think that's probably very true in your community as well, where if the single-digit acceptance rate is your only outcome that matters, we have a problem.
John Durante:
I agree-
Lee Coffin:
... as a more open playing field, you're going to go wonderful places. You just have to keep all those lanes open.
John Durante:
I couldn't agree with you more, and I think that we do a good job in terms of making people understand the things that they do control in the college admissions process, for example, but also educating on the many things that they don't control. For example, there's this thing called institutional priorities, and so we educate parents on that. And when we tell them, "Oh, you were waitlisted at UNC-Chapel Hill? Well, do you know that their institutional priority is that they can't accept more than 18% from outside of the great state of North Carolina?" When I tell people that, they say, "Really? Well, that's really low." I say, "Well, that's low, but have you ever heard of this school called UT Austin? Well, guess what? Their institutional priority is that it's 10%." They can only admit 10% from out of state, and there's a certain percentage out of all of those numbers that I just shared with UNC-Chapel Hill and UT Austin that also include international students.
And so we dive deep. We have conversations with professionals such as yourselves so that we can educate ourselves so that when we're talking to parents, we could explain to them again the things that you control. You control where you visit, where you apply, ultimately where you go, depending on where you get accepted. But the thing that a lot of people forget is this thing called institutional priorities that are very real. And so when we have conversations with parents, we're really able to guide them. And I'll give you another example. You might have a college that receives 40,000 applications and they admit somewhere around 4,500 students to get a yield of approximately 2,500 students, right, 'cause they're looking for 2,500 students to fill their freshman class. And so 40,000 applications, approximately 5,000 admits. It doesn't mean that only those 5,000 were admissible. In fact, I'm willing to bet, and we have a head honcho right here from Dartmouth Lee. Would you say that 75 to 80% of your students are admissible or where are we in terms of that?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, absolutely. At Dartmouth, I was at Tufts before that, two thirds to three quarters of the applicants every year are students who could do the work. I don't have the ability to admit everybody who can do the work. And that's, I think, one of the big challenges of our work is to explain every year that just because you're qualified doesn't mean you're admitted in a selective environment. And people scratch their heads and say, "I don't get it." I said, "Because in your example, if the yield is 50%, if I admitted 8,000, I would've had a class of 4,000. I cannot accommodate that many students. We're small. We have, in a good year, 1,200 seats to fill out of 28 to 29,000 applicants in a typical year. And scale is an institutional factor. You can't control it. I can't add more space. But what you do control, where you apply, how you think about what you're interested in, that's important to remember that you are not getting dragged along by this thing called the college search.
John Durante:
And the other thing we talk about is because of the numbers that you just shared, if you're only applying to institutions that have a, let's say, 10% or less admit rate and three quarters of the applicants are admissible, those schools are reach schools for everyone. And we don't discourage anybody from applying to the Dartmouths of the world, trust me, but we try to educate. So we talk about that balanced list of reach, target, likely, which of course so many people have heard about. And then we also talk about when all else is equal, what matters? When you are admissible, when you have a transcript and standardized test scores that are of a certain caliber, how do you stand out in a competitive application pool?
And we talk about things, for example, the supplemental essays, which in general, they're basically asking, "Why us?" What we say to students and families in the supplemental, for example, "If you could demonstrate that you truly understand the core values of the institution, their mission, their philosophy, and maybe you made a connection because when you visited, you were fortunate enough to meet a professor, maybe you were able to sit in on a class, right." And by the way, a lot of people think that when they're admitted to college, it's over, but if you're able to show once you get there what you intend to do, maybe it'll help you stand out at least for the supplemental portion of the application.
Lee Coffin:
You've given great advice in the spirit of Admission Beat where we like to say, "What's the news you could use?" You just did it. The supplement should be the space in the application where you make it local. I think of the Common App or the Coalition App as a universal platform, lots of places sharing one document, but that doesn't allow that campus to see the local piece, the fit, and that's where the supplement enters in. It's both how well do you know us? What is it about the place and our purpose that resonates with what you're thinking about? Campus by campus, I think there are also places where we invite you as an applicant to tease out some of the personality traits that map to our personality traits.
So using Dartmouth as the example, we are located in a small town in the Northwoods of New Hampshire. It's a very outdoorsy place. It's remote, but self-sustaining. And as I described that, some kids are like, "That's not my place." It's like, "Then you shouldn't apply." But other people are going to say, "That's exactly who I am." And so use the supplement to pull out that fact. I mean, if location in our case makes you decide to study environmentalism in a particularly environmentally impactful place, the supplement should tell us that.
John Durante:
Right. I think that's a great point, and it reminds me of a quote from a dear colleague of ours, actually, Rick Clark from Georgia Tech. When I interviewed him, he said, "John, if someone applies to Dartmouth and UPenn, they did not do their research because those two schools could not be more different." I mean, the common denominator is that they both are under the umbrella of being an Ivy League school. But to your point, yes, you are in a beautiful rural area, and if you're looking for an urban environment, then it's not the right fit. And so we always talk about the fact that there's over 4,000 colleges and universities in the United States alone. There's more than one school. There's many schools that are the right fit for you students, but not every school is in fact the right fit. And so I think that's so important.
And we always try to help people. I remember there was a parent that reached out to me. This was someone who reached out to me after a presentation, and she was panicked because her son, who's a current senior, is running for the first quarter a B+. Heaven forbid, we get a B+. And she was panicked because she thought, "That's it. It's over. There's no way that he's going to get into a competitive school." I said, "Well, you realize that you're going to go early action and the chances of that first-quarter grade coming into play, really, it's not going to come into play for the purpose of being admitted unless, for example, as you know, Lee, you're the head honcho here, if you're waitlisted and quarter grades are then requested later on as part of the application review." But I said, "But for the general application, you should be fine." And all of a sudden the stress kind of reduced. And I said, "And by the way, the first quarter's not over, so keep going."
Lee Coffin:
Right. Your 12th grade is a work in progress, week by week, by week, by term, by term to the midterm and beyond. You have this accumulating story about each class, unlike 11th grade, which is in the history book. That grade is on a transcript. It is done. So your 11th grade, 10th grade, ninth grade, that history is part of the high school record. 12th grade evolves, and an early B+ could turn into an A+ by the time you get to the midterm. Here's the other thing I'm going to say, and their heads will pop off. B does not mean bad.
John Durante:
I love that. I really love that.
Lee Coffin:
It does not mean bad. So a B+ is not a death knell to a candidacy even in the Ivy League. Now, if the whole transcript are B+s and you're at a high school where that's not the norm, okay, you're probably not a competitive applicant. I say not the norm because there are some schools, not many, but there are some with that old-fashioned grading scale where a C means you did really well and a B means you did even better, and then A is nirvana. We see that. We have a school profile and we can see the average grade in this place is a B. You have a B+, that's good. Or, oh, 90% of the juniors got an A in this course and you got a B+. Then the B+ starts to differentiate you in a way that maybe isn't as competitive. But a B+ on a quiz or a test at the start of 12th grade does not knock three years of work out of alignment. I mean, is that-
John Durante:
100%.
Lee Coffin:
Has that been your lived experience? Yeah.
John Durante:
100%. And I love that you mentioned the school profile because I tell families that speak to me all the time that, "You are evaluated based on the context of your high school." And I repeat that time and time again, "Based on the context of your school profile." You have grade distributions on that school profile. You have AP courses that are offered and averages in terms of what's the percentage of students that pass each AP score means on SAT, ACT, and so much more. So if people are not familiar with the school profile, you should be familiar with your own school profile because that's something that professionals like Lee and so many others see when evaluating your application.
I also love that you mentioned the transcript because to your point, whatever happened in ninth, 10th, and 11th grade, good or bad, guess what? It's over. So really, at the time of submitting, fall of senior year, you're really just selecting, I guess, your courses in progress and you want to keep building ramps, keep showing that you're continuing with whatever rigor, and that's different from student to student. But related to the transcript, I like to ask people all the time in your position, Lee, do you recalculate the GPA or do you look at it based on whatever the high school gives you on that transcript?
Lee Coffin:
I do not work at a place that recalculates the GPA. So if Syosset has a 120-point scale, which I know some places on Long Island do, then that's what we use. We say, okay ... And that gets tricky. I had a trustee once was upset because the student had a 96 GPA and didn't get in, and I said, "But the scale was 120." And the trustee said, "Oh."
John Durante:
"Now it makes sense."
Lee Coffin:
The news you could use here, everyone, is sometimes a number is not as illuminating as you think it is. So a 96 out of 100, great. A 96 out of 120, not so great. So yeah. But there are places that will recalculate the GPA so that they can do a comparison. So the colleagues I've heard answer this question with an affirmative, "Yeah, we recalculate," are taking the weighted grade point average, so factoring in the rigor of the course and saying, "We're just going to go 4.0 down to zero. A is a four, a B is a three," and so that they can compare across the pool. And so you are a student in a particular high school, what are its grading patterns? What are its norms? What curriculum is available to you? I mean, you work at a school with a very robust advanced placement curriculum. Some places don't offer that.
And so school A versus Syosset, it's not better or worse. It's like school A didn't do it. So a student in that high school cannot have five, six, eight APs. At your high school, maybe they do. I think there's a worry as people digest college admission that everything everywhere is the same. It's not. And we bring what is known as environmental context to the read. So we're saying, "Where are we?" In your case, you're on Long Island in a suburban town with a lot of high performing kids and a lot of educated parents with a lot of resources in the school. That creates a profile that would be very different than if you drove another hour east on Long Island and you get to a more agricultural high school that will not have those same opportunities, and we know that when we get there. So the Long Island Expressway is bringing us farther and farther east, and as we go, we know the situation changes, not better, worse, different.
John Durante:
Absolutely. And again, that's why it's based on the context of your high school you might be coming from ... But I do have a follow-up question.
Lee Coffin:
Sure.
John Durante:
Let's pretend it is a school, like you mentioned, that has their fair share of AP offerings, but guess what? They also have their fair share of dual enrollment. At a school like Dartmouth, is there a formula? Are you looking for a balance? Are you looking for the AP because the AP is kind of like the national, I would say, brand, if you will? What are you looking for? Because I get that question all the time. :Should I take the AP? Should I take the dual enrollment?: Lee, shed some light on it for us, please.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. There is no answer that is universal to that question. So if you're in a high school that has dual enrollment, and dual enrollment means a high school senior or junior can take courses at a community college or a local university or college and get credit, dual enrollment. You're maybe at the community college and you're a high school senior and you get credit in both, that's a rigorous course. So if you are stretching beyond your high school curriculum or your school doesn't offer APs and you take dual enrollment calculus because you want to be an engineer and that's your way of stretching your math curriculum, fantastic. If your school has both, they're both rigor. I mean, when I read files in Connecticut, the University of Connecticut will have some AP-like designation. So it'll be like UConn English, UConn biology, and that's what the high school offers.
That's rigor. I mean, what we're looking for in the selective band of admission is, are you ready for the pace and the rigor we have on our campus? That's a different question than, did you get an A or a B+? Are you able to come into my classroom and do the work and not just do the work, but thrive in that space? And what evidence do we have from the high school as shown to us by the profile that says, "This is what the faculty at that high school has chosen to offer as its course of study"? Just tell me what counts as advanced so that the students who are at the top of your class, however you want to define that, either you have class rank or you just want to say, schools know who their top students are. Who are they? What courses are they taking?
How are they doing in that high-achieving peer group? That's what we're after. And I think that gets really gummy, John, when we're talking to 11th graders. So for the high school juniors who are not yet picking their senior courses, but they may be thinking about it, how much is too much rigor? How do you back a kid away from, "I'm taking seven APs in my senior year," and you're like, "No, you're not."
John Durante:
Right.
Lee Coffin:
Or to your parents, like, "You don't need to do that." What do you say to that family that's convinced that competitive college admission requires a curriculum that's going to just be punishing in 12th grade?
John Durante:
There are students that are able to handle it and based on if they're able to handle the work and still participate in activities and they're happy and they're thriving and they're smiling, we have a lot of those kids and I know a lot of those kids, and then there are others that might struggle, right? So it really does depend. It is different student by student in terms of what that number is. I've seen in my 33 years now of education, I've seen a lot of different scenarios, and it really is case by case. I think what makes the profession so beautiful, it's not a one-size-fits-all.
Every student, every family, every scenario is different, and that's really what makes it exciting. The other thing that I wanted to ask you about, Lee, if you don't mind, is just standardized test. I know that it's required obviously at a place like Dartmouth and other Ivies, and I know the philosophy behind it, but would you be able to share it in terms of what is your philosophy? Because at some point in time, everybody went test-optional there for a minute. What was the philosophy behind going test required?
Lee Coffin:
Well, in our case, the philosophy behind going test-optional was called COVID.
John Durante:
Of course.
Lee Coffin:
So I'm not trying to be flip, but we were not planning to remove testing as one of our admission requirements. And then a pandemic happened and College Board said, "We can't offer this test as universally as we have. Be flexible in this requirement because either there are no sites or people can't access them or they can't access them, but we can't guarantee public health." So the universal pause on tests required was the pandemic moment. And then as we moved out of that public health crisis, many of us recognized that testing is helpful. Look at the scores when we have them in the context of place. I looked at your profile before we started and I wanted to see what are the average SAT scores at Syosset. And they're in the mid 600s, which is great nationally.
So if you have a score that's a 720/720, you are above the mean at Syosset High School. If you have a 590/590, you are below the mean at Syosset. That's how we use them. We're able to say, "What's the local piece here and how does it help us understand a pile of kiddies who have a lot of strong grades and a great curriculum from a wonderful school?" And we have to at some point make some fine distinctions among them and testing helps sort it. Where testing is really valuable though is in the less-resourced schools in rural communities and urban communities where we don't get a lot of applicants and a student applies with all A's and we see the testing as another proof point that this confirms what's happening in the classroom. And again, we may see that the average score in that school is 1,000 and the student has a 1,290.
So that 1,290 for you is right around the mean. That 1,290 in this other place could be the top score anyone ever had. I think again, people assume I have to take it and take it and take it to add 10 more points and 10 more points doesn't really change the story.
John Durante:
Right.
Lee Coffin:
But the broader number is how does this test give us more information? And an AP score could be that. You got an A plus in the course and you got a three or you got that B plus and you got a five. Well, that B plus, I mean, the woman who taught senior English at my public high school was, God rest her soul, she was a beast and she did not like giving people A's, but everybody got fives when they took the AP exam out of that class. So that's where testing fits. It helps us see patterns. If it's an ACT and kids say, "I have a 32." I'm like, "Right, but you're applying as an engineer. What's the math sub score?" "Oh, it's a 35." "Great." Or, "It's a 27." "That doesn't make sense."
So we're looking for connections between the subject, the grade and the score. And the other way required testing helps us is when we see scores from everyone, we're able to say to a student, "These scores are valuable to your candidacy. They're stronger than you understand they are." We've started to report out testing locally and say 90% of the students we admitted are in the top 25 of their high school test takers. That's a way for a student to say, "Wow, my set of scores is really helpful." But testing historically is the monster in the closet of college admission. It's like nobody believes that we read them in context, that the number isn't the number, that a bigger number isn't always better. I mean, you hear this every day, I'm sure.
John Durante:
I do, and I'm grateful for the answer. I did have two follow-ups. The first is with the AP scores. Are you test flexible at Dartmouth and how does that work? What recommendations do you have in terms of whether or not sharing AP scores would be helpful in a student's overall application?
Lee Coffin:
So to define it for listeners, test flexible means you can swap an AP or an IB score into the required test slot instead of an ACT or SAT. We don't do that. So we require SAT or ACT interchangeably, and we welcome any additional testing. So international students will send us their national testing. If you have AP scores, send them in. I guess the way to say this, John, is don't look at your three and say, "I'm not going to share that 'cause it wasn't a five." Because the three for you may be really illuminating. Everyone doesn't need to get a five. And I work at a place that doesn't give AP credit anyway. So we're using the score as just another way of understanding what happened in that high school, because every teacher, even in the same department, doesn't see the grading scale in the same way. I mean, you've taught, John, I mean, you know that's an A versus a B versus a C isn't going to be the same in the same course for every teacher.
John Durante:
I also had another follow-up question. You mentioned earlier that we all went through this thing called the pandemic, unfortunately, and thank heavens we're years out. And so if you were to look back in those years where you were test-optional, did you see any difference in terms of caliber of students, graduation rates or anything like that? And I get, and I love the example, there might be a rural school that doesn't offer IB or AP, and so you're using the standardized test to really help you decipher and determine the quality, if you will, of that particular applicant. But were there any differences that you and your team saw?
Lee Coffin:
Well, what a lot of my colleagues found as we went deeper into test-optional is that the math preparation was different during the pandemic than before it. And I mean, the very first of the selective colleges to reinstate testing was MIT. And they explicitly said, "We see a difference in our math courses." My math department told me the same thing. I mean, I would go to faculty meetings and they'd raise their hand and say, "When is it coming back?" Because we were seeing kids who got A's in whatever version of calculus or pre-calc was taught in their school, but during the pandemic, an A might've been a pass. And without a score to go along with it was just harder to know what did that A mean or not. And we did see, as we looked at students moving through our curriculum, the students who had lower grades often had no testing.
When our faculty committee looked at it, they said, "We recommend a return to testing as a supporting element." And I'm being really insistent on saying a supporting element, another piece of information. It is not the element, it is not the piece of information, but it's in there. And I have been reading files, this will be my 36th year as a reader. It's a lot of files. And what I've seen over those many, many cycles at four very different places is the testing tells a story along with the transcript, along with course selection, and you knit it all together. My headline on all sorts of information is more info is better. Less info creates more guesswork when you're an admission officer trying to read a file, assess it, evaluate it, make a decision on it. So I think the more things we can add holistically and in context, the better decisions we make. And to families listening to me say this, the number that I think gets overlooked too often when you're looking for a campus and fit, what percentage of the first-year class returns for sophomore year?
John Durante:
The good old retention rate.
Lee Coffin:
Retention rate. And it's not just four years and six years out, which is what the feds require us to report. What's the first year retention rate? Because when it's in the 90s, which most of the very selective places you'll see, like in our case it's 98, 99% return, some people transfer, some people withdraw for personal reasons, very few flunk out because we-
John Durante:
But that's because of the great work that you do.
Lee Coffin:
That's right. We've done the ... In the admission-
John Durante:
You've done your homework.
Lee Coffin:
We've invited people to join the class who can do the work. So that's where what we're talking about has the payoff is you're not in a classroom saying, "Oh my God. I can't ..." That imposter syndrome, it's hard to remove doubt from any new student's head around, "How did I get in? Am I as good as everybody else?" You got in and you are.
John Durante:
That's right.
Lee Coffin:
"Because I think there's not a learning curve as you start." Of course there is. I was a high achiever in my public high school. I got to college and got a C on my first test in history of all things. And I remember going to the professor and saying, "Can you look at my exam and just help me understand what I did wrong?" And he said, "Well, first of all, you're a freshman. It's the end of September. You're learning. This is not wrong. It's just I graded these with an eye towards giving you a little push, knowing that this isn't the straight-A kid from high school can't just coast into college."
I thought, "You son of a ..." But he also said, "But in your case," he said, "None of your answers were wrong. They just weren't fully developed." 'Cause I came out of a high school where I had not had to do a lot of expository writing…
John Durante:
Right.
Lee Coffin:
... so I didn't know that my two-sentence answer to whatever question needed to be a paragraph. I learned that, and on the next exam, I got an A. So that adjustment happens because the admission officers are looking at the evidence saying, "This kid knows how to learn, how to course correct, how to tip over, get back up." I mean, that's-
John Durante:
That's it. That's it. And I love that you mentioned the retention rate, and no surprise that Dartmouth is so high, one of the highest in the country. But again, it's because the number one thing that you're looking at, and correct me if I'm wrong, in your office, is very simply, "Can you handle the work?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah.
John Durante:
Can you handle the rigors of our curriculum?" And so you're going to admit students that demonstrate that they can do that, which is why you look at the transcript, the context of the high school, the standardized test. But when all else is equal, like we talked about before, you said it earlier, it's very important to tell your story, students, because anything that you leave up to the admissions reps to speculate about, it's not going to necessarily work. It's probably not going to work in your favor. And so it leads me to my next question, Lee, which is a lot of times I hear students will use the additional information section to give context.
For example, "Hey, I'm a high school student that during those four years, I was in three different high schools because my parent traveled for whatever business or whatever the circumstances may have been." Would you agree that in terms of telling your story, whatever's missing from the transcript, the activity sheet, the supplemental, the personal, if there's more, would you recommend using that space? And do you see more and more students doing that?
Lee Coffin:
So more isn't always good or required. Where we ask for additional information, you give a good example. I was in three high schools in four years because that's good information. Or we had our season premiere with Jenny Rickard from Common App and she said, "An extracurricular could be ... I come home from school every day and offer caregiving to my grandfather with dementia." That doesn't fall in the extracurricular chart. It's not the drama club, but it's something really important in that student's life that helps us meet her and know, "Okay, this is what's going on." Or during the awful fires in LA a couple of years ago, students talked about, like, "My neighborhood, my school burned." If you don't have an answer to that question, you don't need to put anything down. But John, it leads me to a question I wanted to make sure I ask you before we run out of time.
Around storytelling, I've heard a lot of suburban applicants over the years say something like this, "I'm not distinctive. I live in a suburban bubble. I don't have anything to say that's going to make you notice me." And I say, "Well, that's silly. Of course you do." But how do you guide your seniors towards the evidence that the "suburban bubble" has not snuffed out your personality?
John Durante:
Well, I think we try to get the students to really think about their authentic selves. If they're trying to sound like every other person that got admitted to Dartmouth, they're going to not stand out in a very competitive pool. So for example, if you're a student that loves to read so much that on your own, you're reading a book a week, or maybe you're that kid that, "You know what? I taught myself how to play the guitar because that was my therapy." Those are things that you should include in the overall application. To your point earlier, in terms of the student that would have to take care of a relative who was suffering from dementia, using that as an activity, that's what we try to guide them to do, not to try to replicate what they think you want to hear, but to really be authentic in terms of what their story is and make sure that it's portrayed well throughout the application.
Lee Coffin:
And I've got my yellow highlighter. I'm going to highlight something you just said. Don't answer a question "with what you think I want to hear."
John Durante:
Mm-hmm.
Lee Coffin:
I had the child of friends who was applying early action to a couple of schools just this weekend, and he said, "Here's the question. I think you want me to say this." And I said, "I personally don't want you to say anything, and that's going down the wrong rabbit hole." But he got himself in this head space of Clemson, in this example, wanted him to answer it in a certain way. I said, "You don't know what the Clemson admission officer wants you to say or not. Answer how you want them to meet you."
John Durante:
I couldn't agree more because here's the thing, Lee, and I know you know this, but if I'm authentic in terms of who I am, and I answer based on my philosophy, however I feel as an applicant, if you admit me, great. But if I'm being my authentic self and I'm not the right fit for you and I get rejected, you know what, that's probably not a bad thing. Right. Because again, you don't want to be in a place that you're not in line. The missions, the philosophies are not in line. And again, I repeat, there's over 4,000 colleges and universities in the country. There's more than one school for each and every student. My advice is always be your authentic self and you'll find your people and you'll find your place.
Lee Coffin:
I should count how many times in one of these episodes we say be yourself. There's this doubt that myself isn't good enough. Don't look in the mirror and stick out your tongue. Look in the mirror and smile and say, "Okay, how do I want to draw a picture through this application that lets this place meet me so that as the class comes together, it's got a personality." Your personality blends and enhances the peer group you've got. And if you grew up in suburbia, as so many people, myself included did, there's a common path we're on, but you can talk about so many different things that make you animate. So John, in addition to your day job as the principal of Syosset, you are a podcaster. You host The College Admission Process Podcast. So tell us about that.
John Durante:
So when I went through the process myself with my own daughters, I felt the stress for the first time that parents feel. There I was after years of giving advice to so many students and families, feeling the stress as a parent, and I kept on hearing the quote, "You are best equipped to help the person that you once were." And I came up with this crazy idea of creating a podcast because when I was much younger, I was a DJ and I thought, "All right, I'm not going to get to 20 episodes." I panicked because right away I had about five admissions reps that wanted to come on, and I panicked because I didn't know how to record. "How do you edit? How do you get it on Spotify, Apple, this and that." I'm just shy right now of 400 episodes-
Lee Coffin:
Oh my God.
John Durante:
... and it's just been incredible. I've met so many great people. The name of the podcast is The College Admissions Process Podcast, and the whole thing is it's me speaking to an admissions rep like yourself, Lee, and we talk about your school, what you want from inside and outside of the classroom, but more importantly for students and families and the many counselors that listen, we pull the curtain back on the admissions process and talk about being test-optional, the supplemental, the personal statement, and so much more, and it's just been phenomenal.
Lee Coffin:
On your website, you say, "Our purpose is to serve you, the students, and parents, so that you may gain insight straight from the people who ultimately make the decisions." And listeners, I think you got a taste of that on this episode as John grabbed the mic and started asking me questions, which I love. And I promised as I invited him onto Admission Beat that I would return the favor. And so sometime after New Year's, I will appear on The College Admission Process Podcast as John's guest. So I look forward to being a reciprocal podder with you.
John Durante:
Lee, thank you so much. I'm so grateful that I ran into you in an elevator, Lee, and we got off the elevator and you and I continued literally for about another 20 minutes. To everyone out there, good luck with the college search or whatever it is that you're doing. Sending my best to all. Thank you so much.
Lee Coffin:
Well, thank you, John. And to listeners, when a dean meets a high school principal in a hotel lobby, an interesting conversation unfolds. So I really appreciate the time you spent to come on Admission Beat. For listeners, we'll be back next week with an episode on extracurriculars and the role your clubs and activities will play in the college admission process. We have two college counselors joining Logan Powell, the Dean of Admissions at Brown, for a conversation about all the things that happened outside the classroom and how they count. See you next week.