"Getting in" is the clear goal for almost every applicant, but a college search also yields valuable lessons for the road beyond the admissions process itself. Angel Perez, CEO of the National Association for College Admissions Counseling, returns to Admissions Beat for a Thanksgiving week conversation with Dartmouth Dean Lee Coffin that plumbs the lessons of his career in admissions as strategies for the road ahead. "These are the things I wish I knew," Perez notes.
"Getting in" is the clear goal for almost every applicant, but a college search also yields valuable lessons for the road beyond the admissions process itself. Angel Perez, CEO of the National Association for College Admissions Counseling, returns to Admissions Beat for a Thanksgiving week conversation with Dartmouth Dean Lee Coffin that plumbs the lessons of his career in admissions as strategies for the road ahead. "These are the things I wish I knew," Perez notes.
Lee Coffin:
From Hanover, New Hampshire, I'm Lee Coffin, Dartmouth's vice president and dean of admission and financial aid, and this is Admissions Beat.
(music)
I'm excited this week to welcome my friend and colleague, Angel Perez, the CEO of the National Association for College Admission Counseling. He's been a friend of the pod, he's a returning guest, and we've invited him for his second appearance, to have a conversation that is a little more admissions-adjacent than a direct hit on the usual advice we give. Angel has a talk he gives called “What I Wish I Knew, 12 Strategies for the Road Ahead.” And we thought in this Thanksgiving moment in the United States, we would have a holiday episode where we chat about something a bit broader than how to get into college and bring to bear some thoughts about college as part of a bigger story in your life. How does college fit into the life you're imagining for yourself and what are the things you might be pondering now as an applicant, as a junior in high school, as a parent of an applicant, about taking stock of where you are and where you're going?
So when we come back, Angel will join us for a really interesting conversation about the road ahead and strategies to navigate that with intentional purpose. We'll be right back.
(music)
Angel, hi.
Angel Perez:
It's so good to be back.
Lee Coffin:
I've come to think of Angel as America's chief college counselor, or if you're on my side of the desk, the chief admission officer. He joined us on season four for a conversation, big picture about all things admissions, but he's back today wearing a slightly different hat. Angel, what's interesting as we start this conversation and people meet you through the pod, Angel was the dean of admission at Pitzer College in California. He was vice president of enrollment and student success at Trinity College in Connecticut, my alma mater. And it's the student success piece we want to focus on today. To think about how students can set goals and whether you're in the moment or looking ahead, how do you attain those goals? Angel, I think that's really easy to overlook when students are in the search itself. It's like there's such a clear focus on, I got to get in.
Angel Perez:
Yes.
Lee Coffin:
That they lose track of why they're trying to get in.
Angel Perez:
Yes, exactly. It's so much bigger than that. So I'm excited we're going to dig into this.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Let's start with your story. Tell us a little bit about Angel as a high school senior in the South Bronx and how your life experience led to where you are today, and maybe more pointedly to the conversation we're about to have about strategies for the road ahead.
Angel Perez:
Yeah, I love that question because so much of the work I do today is a result of what that experience was like in high school for me. As you mentioned, I grew up in the South Bronx. I'm originally from Puerto Rico, grew up very low income, like many students across the United States, but was really fortunate to attend a public school in New York City where a high school counselor tapped me on the shoulder and said, "Young man, have you ever thought about going to college?" And to be honest, I hadn't, didn't have a lot of models in my life around college, but that one tap on the shoulder really began to open an entire world for me. And so as a result of that, I was able to go to college. I went to Skidmore College in Upstate New York, my alma mater, and probably like you Lee, started working in college admission and thought I would do that until I got a real job. And almost 30 years later, here I am. So I think this is a real job.
Lee Coffin:
I think it's real job.
Angel Perez:
I think I am doing a real thing here. But it's been such a pleasure and an honor, and again, to be able to work with young people my entire career and help them not just figure out the college admissions process, but figure out who do I want to be and how do I want to live my life? That's the kind of stuff I'm really passionate about.
Lee Coffin:
So your first gen story—like mine, I'm also first gen—you come from a low income background, and if we were reading your application today, I think the admission officer reading your file would say, "This kid has grit."
Angel Perez:
Yes.
Lee Coffin:
Talk about grit as it relates to you?
Angel Perez:
It's interesting. I still remember what I wrote my college essay about.
Lee Coffin:
You do?
Angel Perez:
So it probably doesn't surprise you because I was pretty nerdy back then as I still am now. I actually worked in my senior year of high school for the New York City Youth line, which I'm not sure it still exists. But it was a peer-to-peer youth line where people can call in and talk to you about some of the challenges they were having. And so I was trained as a counselor, and I just wrote about that experience. And about the fact that I wanted to pay it forward, that there were so many people who had helped me. Given how many challenges I had growing up poor and low income, and I actually grew up in a pretty violent neighborhood and had alcoholism in my family. I've been very public about all these things, and I wanted to pay it forward. And so my essay and my entire application really was around not necessarily my overcoming because I don't think that I could articulate those things when I was 17 years old, but really more of how fortunate I felt and that I wanted to pay it forward.
So for me, grit, and it's interesting you mentioned that I used to, when I was admissions dean, that was something that I asked our team all the time. "Let's look at people's grit." And it's really the ability to take a situation and try to one; stick with it and not just run in the other direction when life gives you challenges, but also to rise above your particular circumstances. So I've always been passionate about particularly students who are in those spaces of having them tell them their stories and feel empowered to tell the world about it.
Lee Coffin:
I think that's it. It's like being empowered to tell your story advice for everybody. And so as we start to talk about your 12 strategies, are the strategies universal or is it really encouragement for kids who share your background?
Angel Perez:
The strategies are actually universal. And by the way, they're not just for kids. I would say that these strategies are also for adults.
Lee Coffin:
There you go parents.
Angel Perez:
Yeah. So hello parents-
Lee Coffin:
Hello parents.
Angel Perez:
... and counselors and admission officers who are listening to this. I know that we have lots of people listening who are in the profession. I've also given a version of this talk at conferences to professionals, particularly our profession. We are helpers. We do, we help and we forget that we also need life tools to be able to remain gritty.
Lee Coffin:
Grit is important. Okay. So let's talk about your presentation. So I have colleagues who heard you deliver this to the Lenfest Scholars in Pennsylvania. So to listeners, that's a community-based organization serving students from rural Pennsylvania.
Angel Perez:
Yes.
Lee Coffin:
And you were the keynote. Two colleagues who were there came back and were wowed. So we're going to share some of the wow. Tell us about the presentation as a whole. What prompted you to develop this?
Angel Perez:
I was speaking to high school students, and actually, these days I don't speak to high school students that often. My audiences tend to be more professional audiences, and I was so excited to return to speaking to high school students. And I kept asking myself, "What could I offer them?" I'm not going to talk about college admissions. They get plenty of that through the Lenfest Scholars organization. And I thought if I was sitting in that room, and these are rural students, very diverse audience by the way, from all over Pennsylvania and some of them were already in college in their first year and others were setting off. And I thought if I was sitting in those shoes, what would I want to know?
And now as I'm turning 50 years old this year and so have a little bit of experience in life and what would I have told Angel Perez 17-year-old? In terms of here are some of the life skills that you need to develop and muscles that you need to hone over time. Because some of the lessons that I shared with this group, I wish I had learned this many, many years ago and it took me many years and I still have war wounds from them, but I'm grateful. And now like you, you're a teacher, the minute we learn a lesson, we want to pass it on. That was my intention for the speech.
Lee Coffin:
So you gave them 12 strategies. I'm going to cherry-pick several of them and then have you talk about that concept. So number one; you are the designer of your life. Whoo.
Angel Perez:
Yes. I get excited about this. So I used to teach a course called Designing Your Life based on the Stanford curriculum, which by the way, Dartmouth is doing now. So I'm very excited about this coming to the Dartmouth campus. But I will never forget that I was teaching this course and a student, I love watching the light-bulb moments with students. And this whole course is based on using design thinking methodology to think about how you live your life. There was a student who I had known and I was one of his mentors and he was an economics major. Why was he an economics major? Because his parents told him he needed to be an economics major and that was how you were going to get a quote, unquote, "real job."
Lee Coffin:
That was my father's advice to me. I hated it.
Angel Perez:
Oh my gosh. See, and you were miserable and-
Lee Coffin:
Well, I didn't do it. I chose history. And his response was, "What the hell are you going to do with that? And why am I paying for it?" And I had to remind him, we had a lot of financial aid, so he wasn't really paying very much for it. But he exactly, to your point, Angel, he was pointing me, first gen me, towards economics as practical and something I would get a job at the end of.
Angel Perez:
And you are the one who had to go live that life, right? And so this student that I'm talking about, again, he was miserable. And it wasn't until he took this course and I saw the light-bulb moment go off when we were doing a design thinking exercise. Where he said, "Wait, I can actually be the one who decides about my future?" And that sounds so simple, but I bet you there are so many people listening to this right now who don't even realize that so many of the belief systems that we hold, so many of the things we do is really because it's been handed down to us.
It's one of the reasons my college experience was so transformative. When I went to Skidmore, I took a course, which still exists, but it has a different name, called Liberal Studies 1, the Human Experience. And every week we had a different professor from a different discipline come and talk to us about what does it mean to be human through their perspective. So psychological perspectives, mathematical perspective, scientific. It was blowing my mind. And we had these really interesting conversations like is race a social construct? And this poor kid from the South Bronx, I had no idea that a lot of my belief systems or the ways that I behave, it was just handed down to me. And that is when I began to learn, oh, I am now an adult and I now get to decide how I live my life, what I believe in, what I'm passionate about, how I engage the work world, so on and so forth.
So easier said than done because we live in a society with a lot of pressure. But once you get that, your life is yours to design and to tap into your passions and what it is that really drives you. You went with history. Other people, they followed their father's advice and went with economics. What I want for this next generation of young people is that they don't do what previous generations did, which is they did a job they hated for 60 years and said, "I'll have fun and joy when I'm retired." That is not a good way to live your life. Let's design our way forward.
Lee Coffin:
So the advice, the direct advice to kids, design your own life and kind of channeling Shakespeare, be true to yourself.
Angel Perez:
Be true to yourself. Yeah. And listen to what it is, what gives you energy. A lot of students, I remember when I would advise students, they're like, "I don't know what I'm interested in. I don't know." And yes, that could be true, but also there are hints of these things all over us. I didn't connect the dots until after college that I love writing. It's why I recently wrote a book, and I just get a lot of joy out of it. But if I had paid attention to what were the things that I enjoyed in school and what I did when I went home and connected those dots, I think I would've learned earlier what some of those passions were.
Lee Coffin:
I love that. Okay. That was number one. Number two; your struggles will become your powers.
Angel Perez:
Yes. Oh, I love this too. And I've learned it the hard way. So much of our lives, we spend complaining about all the difficult things that happened to us. And I don't care if you grew up low-income, wealthy, rural, city, we all have extraordinary challenges that we face in our lives. So this is universal. But the question is how are you going to use those moments to actually make you stronger? My philosophy has evolved over time that in moments of challenge, and we are living in great moments of challenge, and you and I are in a profession that is deeply challenged right now, I always ask myself the question, what am I supposed to learn here? I used to say to myself, when things got hard, why is this happening to me? And now I ask myself, what am I supposed to learn from this moment?
It's a total refrain. But what I've realized now as I've gotten older, is that those hard moments were preparing me for something so much bigger. It's interesting, and I'll use this example, I have a job with lots of constituents and there's lots of politics. And sometimes my staff says to me around here, "Wow, you're so calm. Anel, you're so calm despite all the things coming at you." And I said, "Boy, you've never worked on a college campus because let me tell you what a challenge looks like."
What I didn't realize when I was the dean, when I was on campuses and challenges with faculty and just the kind of politicking I had to do, it was preparing me for this moment. And I know that the challenges I'm facing today is preparing me for something much bigger. So if you can reframe that, given whatever challenge you're facing today, it is going to make you stronger. It also, by the way, makes you get through the moment in a different way, right? You're not sitting there feeling sorry for yourself. You feel like, okay. To be honest, Oprah talks about she's a believer that hard moments teach her lessons. And she also says, "I wish I didn't have to learn so many lessons though." And that's how I feel today. I'm like, really? Can I just not learn a lesson today? I'd rather things not be so challenging. But if you can adopt that mindset, it will shift the way you think about the world.
Lee Coffin:
Love it. Okay, number four, on your list of 12; the only thing you can control is your reaction.
Angel Perez:
Yes, this is another lesson learned the hard way. But I think so many of us, especially now, there's so much going on in the world, you turn on the news and you feel out of control. And I've learned over time that the only thing really that we have control over is the way that we respond to a particular situation. In every challenging moment that I find myself in, or even something as simple as a staff member brings me something, there's a point of conflict or tension, the way that I respond to that is my agency and sort of the quote, unquote, "power that I have."
I can't control what happens. I can't control what problems come before me. I can't control if someone gets sick. I can't control if I get sick. I had shoulder surgery a year and a half ago and I was feeling so sorry for myself. Why is this happening to me? I threw all my theories out the window. But I started realizing, wait, it's really about how I respond to this. If I think about this as an opportunity, it became an opportunity to rest. Which I run 1,000 miles an hour all the time, but I was forced to rest and I looked at it as a gift. Eventually I got there. And so how we respond to situations is really the only control we have.
Lee Coffin:
Well, this one really resonated from an admissions' perspective too, because I think-
Angel Perez:
Oh, yes.
Lee Coffin:
... reacting to the admission process and particularly the decisions, I mean, we're nearing late November, lots of students have applied somewhere early, binding, not binding. Decisions are imminent. How you react to that is a case in point.
Angel Perez:
And this is also hard too, but it's related, which is if you can put yourself in the mindset that in the admissions process in particular, but also any job that you've ever wanted or anything you really went for that you didn't get, what is meant for me is what is going to come. And there are so many students, you and I know this because we've been in the business for so long, who didn't get into your institution or my institution previously, but they ended up exactly where they were supposed to be. And so they spent so much time mourning the loss of their admission to Dartmouth or Trinity or Khan or wherever. And then they end up at this other institution and they make best friends and they have this lifelong love relationship with the institution. And so if you can also open yourself up to when things don't necessarily go my way, there is a larger plan and the only thing you can control is how you respond to it.
Lee Coffin:
I advise kids all the time to think about the decision is not a win or a loss. Getting into your reach is not the lottery ticket. Getting denied is not being rejected.
Angel Perez:
Right.
Lee Coffin:
Those are very different words. And sometimes people say, "Oh, you're just being euphemistic." I'm like, "No." A decline, a deny is saying we have a volume proposition. You knew that when you applied, you chose to submit an application to a high volume place with a scarce number of seats. So how you react to the decision when it comes back as a disappointing one, you can be disappointed, but I've heard students say, "I'm devastated." It's like, "Don't be devastated." That's I think what you're talking about. Control your reaction and say, "Okay, this didn't play out, but this did." Focus on what you have and take advantage of that opportunity as it presents itself.
Angel Perez:
I love it. That's beautiful.
Lee Coffin:
Okay. I'm riffing off you here, Angel.
Angel Perez:
We're going to get deep.
Lee Coffin:
There we go, we're going deep. Yeah. So okay, number five; everyone has imposter syndrome.
Angel Perez:
And for anyone who says they don't have some level of imposter syndrome, I am deeply concerned about them.
Lee Coffin:
For someone hearing that phrase for the first time, what do you mean by imposter syndrome?
Angel Perez:
I usually define it with the example of a college campus. I think when students arrive on college campuses, everyone walks around thinking that other students know stuff they don't know, and that they have a leg up or an advantage that they don't have. The reality is everyone, especially when you're a first year student and you're new to an environment, everybody feels a little lost and everybody feels like those people over there, they know more than I do or they're smarter than I am, or whatever the case may be. I think if you can really get to a point where you realize every single person has a level of uncertainty and a level of imposter syndrome, in the sense that other people know this thing that I don't know. And I saw that over and over and over again on college campuses, but here's what's fascinating, even as you move into adulthood, it does not go away.
Every job I've taken, I have moved in with imposter syndrome. Even taking this job on. I think externally, people would say, "Oh, that was an easy transition." I think when you take these jobs on, you're like, do I belong here? And did the board know what they were doing when they hired me? And I think that little healthy sense of skepticism is really healthy. You can't sit in that for too long. And I think once you become a student and you know what's going on, it's about helping others come along. But my guess is you, Lee, have had imposter syndrome in your roles, right?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, of course.
Angel Perez:
I mean, I think people probably look at you, the dean at Dartmouth, he really knows what he's doing. But what was that like when you first arrived?
Lee Coffin:
I had many moments. I remember being a freshman at Trinity and coming from a public high school that didn't send many people to colleges like the one where I ended up, and sitting in seminars thinking, I never learned how to write an expository essay. It wasn't the way my high school taught. We had multiple choice tests and I got A-pluses on them, and I studied, but it was a different way of studying and learning. And I had those moments where I thought, how did I get in? And I got in because I was a good student and a leader in my environment and they saw that and I had the toolkit to adapt. But yeah, of course. And then coming to Dartmouth, I remember getting the job offer and being surprisingly overwhelmed by it, by the moment. I had gone through the search and had many rounds of interviews, talked to lots of people, and then I finally said yes.
And then it hit me, oh my God, I'm a dean of an Ivy League college. And I got caught in that last sentence, at an "Ivy League college", quote, unquote. I had been a dean for 20 years before that. I knew how to do the job, but I caught myself being intimidated by the prestige. I got past it. But I did feel a little bit of a, they picked me. And I think when you see people, particularly when school first starts, and I always smile at those early days of the fall term when you've got people coming from all around the world to this campus and their paths were very different, but they landed in the same place, and you were the valedictorian of your class and you realize, oh, there were 221 other people in this class who were also the valedictorian of their class.
Angel Perez:
Yes.
Lee Coffin:
Maybe for the first time, that valedictorian feels a little unsteady. That, huh? If you ranked us, someone's going to be 221, not the one.
Angel Perez:
Yeah, exactly.
Lee Coffin:
There are lots of ways this shows up. And I always remembered that on the first day of school when I would welcome the class and I made a point every time to say, "Before we leave this room, this field, this place, remember, you each earned your seat, for different reasons, but don't doubt how you got here." And I would say that to prospective applicants as they're moving through the end of their senior fall and starting to apply. "You are you. Just be you. Don't wonder why someone invited you or someone else. It's just, own your story."
Angel Perez:
I know we have others to talk about, but do we have time for a quick imposter syndrome story?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Angel Perez:
I don't think I've ever told this publicly. So this is new hot off the press, but it was so powerful for me. It was a huge shift in my life. So I got my master's degree at Columbia Teacher's College, and my first Ivy League institution, and I certainly did not see myself defined as an Ivy League student. And I took my first exam and the professor gave the first exam back, and I immediately stuffed it in my bag. I did not look at the grade because I just assumed this Ivy League institution, I don't belong here. I probably didn't do well even though I had studied so much. And I was living in Harlem at the time. And so I took two buses and walked home, still did not look at the paper.
Lee Coffin:
Wow.
Angel Perez:
Because I wanted to wait until I got home and went into my room and closed the door so I can have a sad crying moment about my failure at the Ivy League by myself. And I pulled out the paper and I had an A. I literally was like, what was that all about? Why were you so worried? But I spent my entire first semester in graduate school at Columbia thinking every single person around me was smarter than I was. Only to realize, hey, we all got in here. We deserve to be here. And I think all undergraduates feel that way as well. So I do think it's important to have those moments, but it's also important not to sit in them for too long.
Lee Coffin:
And you know, adjacent to imposter syndrome is humility. It's okay to be humble.
Angel Perez:
That's right. That's right.
Lee Coffin:
Humble isn't doubting yourself. So humility, good.
Angel Perez:
Yes, exactly.
Lee Coffin:
Doubt, let it go.
Angel Perez:
Exactly.
Lee Coffin:
Let it go.
Angel Perez:
That's a great reminder.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Okay, number seven; luck is when preparation meets opportunity.
Angel Perez:
Opportunity. Yes. Yes. And I think you have a different version of that.
Lee Coffin:
Well, mine is, so I was born in the Chinese zodiac year of the rabbit. So I ponder that. I have a friend who is also a fellow rabbit, and we were talking about how rabbits are lucky. And I started saying, I adopted the motto, make your own luck.
Angel Perez:
Yes.
Lee Coffin:
Don't wait for someone else to make you lucky. Don't buy the lottery ticket. Roll up your sleeves, do the work, make your own luck. I like your framing of it too. Luck is when preparation meets opportunity. Discuss.
Angel Perez:
I've become really passionate about this particular phrase and I share it with people, and particularly with young people, because I think young people will look at famous people or people in your role, Lee or influencers, so on and so forth, and say, "Wow, they're so lucky. Look at them." And I don't see it that way. I'm like, that wasn't luck. They worked hard. There's preparation. What a lot of people don't see behind the scenes, especially with leaders, is how they got there and the incredible sacrifices and sweat equity that they put into the work to become the dean, to become the president, to become whatever it is the role model that they're looking at. And so for me, I've always said to folks, "You have to put in the really hard work not knowing what it is that the prize is at the end, but what you want to be is prepared when the moment of opportunity arrives." Right?
Lee Coffin:
That's it.
Angel Perez:
And so that to me is critically important. Not that I don't believe in luck and serendipity and things like that do happen, but I think it's more important to be prepared.
Lee Coffin:
Do your homework.
Angel Perez:
Do your homework.
Lee Coffin:
Do your homework. It's reminding me of Dartmouth's commencement two years ago featured Roger Federer as our commencement speaker, and it was the first time he had ever given a commencement address.
Angel Perez:
Oh, wow.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. And you'd think, oh, this-
Angel Perez:
Yeah, I'm surprised by that.
Lee Coffin:
... tennis God would be everywhere. But this was the first time he had done it. And this concept of make your own luck, he said, "I used to get frustrated when I would win the French Open or Wimbledon, and the story would say, "Federer made it look effortless." And he said, "Nothing is effortless."
Angel Perez:
Oh, I agree 100%.
Lee Coffin:
"That I won because I worked hard and there was effort. You didn't see me sweat, but it was because I'd done my homework."
Angel Perez:
And so much of the effort isn't necessarily even on the field. It's the thousands of hours he put in before he got on that field, right?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. But it really jumped out. I took out my phone and I write down, nothing is effortless. Because he-
Angel Perez:
Nothing is effortless.
Lee Coffin:
... was humble. He said, "It wasn't effortless. It was a lot of hard work to achieve what I achieved." The other interesting thing I remember is when you look at the number of games he won, he said, "My win record by match was high. My win record by game was not more than 50/50." He said, "So the effort was knowing when to win the game."
Angel Perez:
Right.
Lee Coffin:
But it was just, it's a reminder that even someone as famous in his career as he is, he worked hard.
Angel Perez:
Yeah. Nobody gets to where they are without working hard.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. And do your homework.
Angel Perez:
There are no shortcuts in life.
Lee Coffin:
Okay, so number eight, channeling that, when you're starting out, say yes. Be open to trying everything.
Angel Perez:
I've learned this lesson the hard way because I also have the opposite of that is when to say, no, which is just as powerful. But when you are young and starting out when you're in college, for example, or as you get your first job, I think you should say yes to everything. Try new things, try things you've never had experienced before. Because one; that's going to lead to helping you figure out what you like and you don't like and what you might be passionate about and where you might want to dedicate your skills to. But also, it is going to help bring opportunity for you.
My guess is, you and I in our careers would not be where we were if we were like, "Let me volunteer for this project. Let me take on this extra thing. Let me volunteer for this particular committee or professional development opportunity." And so I think when you're young, especially, you have energy and you're just trying to learn, say yes to every opportunity. The difference however is, as you get older and you move into your career and you're much more established, your success will be dependent on you saying, no. You and I have so many opportunities to say yes. We're probably invited to many speaking engagements. We're probably invited to do so many things, but if we say yes to everything now, we will crumble because of the pressure and the time commitment.
And so I think in the beginning you say yes a lot. You don't have to say yes to everything, but you say yes a lot, in the spirit of inquiry and opportunity. And then as you move on in your career, get a little bit more decisive about what it is you say yes to.
Lee Coffin:
That's really good advice. And I'm reminded of bringing it to an admission search. I am counseling my niece, who I've talked about on many episodes this season, and she has been responding really well to liberal arts colleges that were former women's colleges. And I said to her, "Maybe you need to go look at a women's college." And she said, "No." And I said, "I'm going to push. I think you should visit."
Angel Perez:
Doesn't she know how amazing they are?
Lee Coffin:
She doesn't.
Angel Perez:
Incredibly life transforming.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. She doesn't. But to the say, yes, I said, "Just say yes to the visit. Visiting doesn't mean you're applying. Applying doesn't mean you get in, and getting in doesn't mean you're going, but say yes to the inquiry." I have not won that conversation just yet, but I'm not letting go of it.
Angel Perez:
If you are listening, I want to plus one what Lee has said. I think it's also one of the jewels of American higher education. I have so many female friends who went to all women institutions and their lives have been fundamentally transformed.
Lee Coffin:
Totally.
Angel Perez:
So my plug for women's colleges.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Well, it's yes. This goes across the discovery of so many different types of campus. I mean, I work at a place in a very distinct location, and so many students in the inquiry phase will say, "Well, I don't see myself in a rural community." And it's like, "How do you know?"
Angel Perez:
Right. I'm here.
Lee Coffin:
And then we get to the end, I see people coming for certain programs and they arrive and they say, "Oh, it's beautiful here. It's peaceful. There's this really wonderful sense of community." It's like, "Right. And if you said no to the invitation, you never would've realized that." And it still may not be where you see yourself, but saying yes gets you to explore.
Angel Perez:
Well, and it opens up your horizon. My personal college example about this is, I grew up in the South Bronx. We don't hike. That's not a thing that happens in the Bronx.
Lee Coffin:
You hike stairs.
Angel Perez:
Yeah, we hike stairs. And so I went to Skidmore and this group of students was like, "Angel, let's go hiking." And I was like, "I'm from New York. We don't do that." And I will tell you, I said, yes. And I am an avid hiker. I love hiking all over the world now. It's one of my favorite activities. I love being out in nature. But again, if I hadn't said yes, just out of curiosity, I would've missed out on this wonderful passion that I have now. So say, yes.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. I wrote the forward to a book that my high school drama director is writing called, 'Lessons from the Stage.' And I had him-
Angel Perez:
Wow.
Lee Coffin:
... on the pod last season talking about lessons of the stage as a preamble to his book. But he asked me to write the forward. And as I was thinking about, what did I want to say, I started it with, "I said, yes." I said, yes, to my friend, Sarah, in the first couple of weeks of high school who said, "Hey, the fall play is having auditions. Let's try out." I had never thought about trying out for a play. It wasn't something I imagined was going to be my high school extracurricular experience. But I said, "Okay, that sounds like fun. Let's try it." Interesting twist in the story, I got cast in the play, she did not.
Angel Perez:
Oh my. It was meant to be.
Lee Coffin:
It was meant to be. I ended up being in eight shows in high school, ended up being named best actor in my class.
Angel Perez:
I did not know this about you.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah.
Angel Perez:
I didn't realize you had an acting background.
Lee Coffin:
And president of the drama club. But all of that-
Angel Perez:
Wow.
Lee Coffin:
... accomplishment that hit my senior year started with a yes to a very simple conversation between two friends. Had no idea what path had just opened up to me, but it did. So it's an interesting example of saying, yes. Where, I've, as an adult, I mean, you're right about learning when to say no, I tend to not be as good at that, even though my job requires me to say, no.
Angel Perez:
You and I are on the struggle bus around this.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, I'm on the struggle bus.
Angel Perez:
I get it.
Lee Coffin:
I say, yes, more than I should. But I've learned, parents listening, I've learned how to say, no, and not in a way that's dismissive, but just being pragmatic about my own ability to do something.
Angel Perez:
Well, can I give you my formula for how to say, no?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. How do you say, no?
Angel Perez:
Okay. This is my advice for the dean of admission at Dartmouth, my friend. No, but actually I write about this in my book because I think especially admission folks, we are a yes people. When I'm presented with something, the first question I ask myself is, by saying yes to this, what am I saying no to in my life?
I spent so many years saying yes to all these programs flying around the world, and that meant more evenings away from home, more weekends, more exhaustion. So I just pause and ask myself, let's make this a little bit more intentional. The second one is around intention. What is my intention by saying, yes? I tell this story oftentimes where I said yes to a speaking event in New York. I was living in California. I took a red-eye, I went, I spoke for 20 minutes. I got back on the plane and flew to LA all in the same day. I was exhausted, I was bitter. And I was like, why did I say yes to that? So what is my real intention and saying yes.
And then the last one is my favorite, which is it a hell yes? It comes from a book called 'Essentialism', actually, Greg McEwen, who's great, and I recommend his book, but he talks about if your gut... When someone presents you with an opportunity, like this podcast, you wrote me and said, "Hey, would you talk about this?" And I was like, "Hell, yes."
Lee Coffin:
And you said, "Hell, yes." You did.
Angel Perez:
I was like, "Hell, yes." This is the stuff that fires me up. But I think we need to pause a little bit more before we say yes to things and think about it.
Lee Coffin:
Amen. I think that's right. Because you could overwhelm yourself of, yes.
Angel Perez:
Oh gosh.
Lee Coffin:
I have a friend who is a yes man. I said, "You're like a really hungry person at Thanksgiving dinner where you're just putting too much on your plate and you're going to get indigestion." So how's that as a holiday themed observation? But I think saying, yes, is fun. A friend of mine at Dartmouth calls me the dean of, yes. And Meg always, she said, "You're always open to ideas." Yeah. I said-
Angel Perez:
Yeah. It's a great thing. It's a great thing.
Lee Coffin:
... "Yeah, because I don't know what I'm going to learn." And you can say yes and be discerning at the same time.
Angel Perez:
Just don't let your yes lead to burnout. I think that's-
Lee Coffin:
No, no, no. That's right. You don't want to yes yourself into immobility, where you've got so much to do, you can't do anything.
Angel Perez:
And then no one wins, right?
Lee Coffin:
Nobody wins, right? And that's true, kids, when you finish high school and you get to college, I watch a lot of first-year students run around trying to do everything right out of the gate. They think, oh, I had to be an overachiever to give into a college like this. No, I have to continue. No, you don't. Take a breath, get the lay of the land. Focus on a couple of things that bring you joy. You don't have to do everything. You don't need to keep proving that you are a high achiever.
Angel Perez:
And thank you for bringing up joy. I don't think we talk about it enough, especially high achieving students. It's like, "Just tell me what I need to do." But life is to be lived, and needs to be lived and to experience joy. And so it's important to put those things in your experience as well. And by the way, there's so much joy in college. If you haven't gotten there yet, boy, you're in for a treat. There's so much fun in college.
Lee Coffin:
There's fun.
Angel Perez:
It's so much fun.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. But a couple years ago, we had one of our supplemental questions on the application was, what makes you happy? And one of my colleagues said, "Isn't that just a simple question?" I said, "It's deceptively simple." It's what makes you happy.
Angel Perez:
But I bet you, so many students, it stumps them, because they may not have ever thought of that. So I actually think that's a really deep question.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Well, it was a very deep question and it produced fantastic essays. So everyone out there who's stuck at the keyboard Thanksgiving, you're trying to work on your applications, ask yourself what makes me happy? And try and see if that could be the answer to one of the questions you're trying to produce. Because whatever you say is going to be interesting to me as a reader.
Angel Perez:
I would love to read those essays. How fun is that?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, they we're good. Yeah. My other fun one was, “Celebrate your nerdy side.”
Angel Perez:
Oh, yeah.
Lee Coffin:
Which I used at Tufts and then I brought it back at Dartmouth. Because that's also, it was permission from me to be a nerd. Like-
Angel Perez:
Like many of us who grew up like we did, reading.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah.
Angel Perez:
It's okay to love reading. It's okay.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. I went to a high school reunion and former cheerleader who I did not know came up to me and she said, "I've been watching you tonight. And it's like, you're a real life example of Revenge of the Nerds." And I went, "Oh, great."
Angel Perez:
Oh, I love that.
Lee Coffin:
She said it was a compliment, I think. But I took it definitely. I was like, "Yep." I said, "Everybody at 17 is not fully formed, and the nerdy boys in high school go on to do great things. So nerdy boys in high school, you got two of us right here saying-
Angel Perez:
Your future is bright, my friends.
Lee Coffin:
That's right. Okay, next one. Manage your energy, not your time.
Angel Perez:
Oh, this took me so long to figure out, I actually didn't figure it out until I got into this job and dealt with a burnout episode. But for years, Lee, I thought that if I had the perfect calendar, if I had in the working world, my 9:00 to 5:00, and it was all neatly organized, that I could be successful and I could just keep going. And what I realized is, it wasn't about managing my time, it was actually about managing my energy and really trying to figure out what are the things that give me energy? What are the things that deplete it? And sort of trying to balance my day and my week and my month and my year with it.
So I now realize that if I don't meditate and exercise in the morning, my whole day is off. And it's because that's the energy and the fuel that I need to sort of catapult me into the day. But I also know that my energy starts depleting in the late afternoon. I've actually been quite transparent about it with my team, and I'm like, "If you want real high level decision making and thinking from me, don't come to me at 4:00. Not a great time."
Lee Coffin:
No, it's me too. I am Tigger bouncing out of the house of Pooh corner first thing in the morning. I start the day with a lot of zip.
Angel Perez:
Me too.
Lee Coffin:
I am not that person around 3:30 to 5:00.
Angel Perez:
And that's when people want to present you with these meaty challenges. And I'm like, "Can we talk about this at 9:00 AM tomorrow?"
Lee Coffin:
No, that's right. And it's like I say that to my administrative assistant. I said, "Try not to book me late afternoon. Give me a study hall so I can do other things." But sometimes you have to be in a meeting then, but I will never call a meeting late afternoon. It's like knowing yourself. It's knowing when you do your best work. When I read applications, I start early and I will usually walk the dog at 3:30 to 5:00. I'll go out. Or I'll exercise or I'll-
Angel Perez:
Right. That's the time you need to replenish.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, I just need to... And then I'm good again. I come back and I have my second wind. But knowing that my energy flow is not at its best.
Angel Perez:
Imagine if we had figured this out in college though. I think so many college student... I mean, I was a mess in college. I was always tired because I was an over achiever and I was doing everything. And I thought, doing all these things till late at night was sustainable. But for high school students and college students who are listening, I think really trying to listen to the rhythms of your body, figuring out also, what do I need to eat to sustain my energy? What do I need to pull back on? It sounds really simple, but it's actually the recipe to success.
Lee Coffin:
Find your flow.
Angel Perez:
Find your flow. Yes. So there is actually a concept that was created by a psychologist where there is a state that we can go into where we are so engaged with what we are doing that we don't even see time pass. I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out what puts me in flow. So writing, for example, puts me in flow. I could be writing and then all of a sudden I'm like, oh my gosh, an hour has gone by, what just happened?
But also the opposite could be true. I also like salsa dancing. I grew up salsa dancing. I'm Puerto Rican. And the minute I'm dancing salsa and the music comes on, I forget that there is a world around me. I just go into a trance. It makes me so happy. I have a friend who, I can tell you're a dog person, because you have a dog behind you, but I have a friend who has a dog and she's like, "I play with my dog when I come home from work and I forget what time it is."
Lee Coffin:
Yup.
Angel Perez:
"I am just in this state." Everyone, and there's studies that have been done around this, needs to find their flow state on a regular basis. It's actually quite healthy, especially given how stressed we are around the world right now. Part of the challenge I give especially to young people is, how are you going to find your flow? What puts you in that state? Begin experimenting now.
Lee Coffin:
And the last one, you have many more, but the last one I'll ask, life is a marathon, not a sprint.
Angel Perez:
This actually was something that was said to me by the first college president that I worked for, Laura Trombley, who is the president of Pitzer College, is now president of Southwestern University. And she sat me down, she said, "Angel, this job is a marathon. It is not a sprint. So I know that you'll come out of the gate hot." Because she knew me. I'm like, overachiever.
Lee Coffin:
You're like, I'm hot.
Angel Perez:
Yeah, I'm hot. I'm ready to go. Let's do things. But if you don't pace yourself over time, you're going to crash and burn pretty quickly. And so, the way that at least I live my life now is I try not to get everything done, despite my inclination to always just be running at the speed of light, but I try to think about what are things I can do today, this week, this year, but knowing that it's a marathon.
And because I've had burnout episodes, which I've written about, if you Google my name and executive burnout, you'll see some articles I've written and podcasts I've done about burnout, that in order to avoid that, you actually need to pace yourself. It's a muscle. I can't say that I'm always great at it. There are seasons throughout the year, I'm like, there I go, I did it again. I'm pretending like it's a sprint. And luckily I have a good team around me who reminds me, "You're doing it again." So it's also good to have a village of people that help you with this.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. So if you're a high school senior and you're hearing this marathon, not a sprint, pace yourself. And I think that the word that comes up so much when I talk to seniors about why they're so anxious about the college admission process, I think a lot of people assume it's because they're worried about getting in. And that is certainly a fundamental part of it. They get immobilized, they procrastinate, and so the marathon turns into a sprint because they run out of minutes.
So they're sprinting, parents watch this. So if everything gets gummed up and the deadlines appear, and boom, applications need to be, then you have no choice but to sprint. And I don't know that people do their best work in that kind of hurry up moment. Sometimes you do. I watched a football game this weekend and the hurry-up offense was really effective. But that's a risk. You have to knowing yourself, as we were talking about. If you thrive on that kind of adrenaline rush, okay, go for it. If you don't, figure that out.
Angel Perez:
Right.
Lee Coffin:
And say, okay, I've got to get some stuff done so that the deadlines come, to make this very admission specific, and I'm hitting submit with confidence that I've done my best work. Not, I swung into action at the last minute, and I hope I did my best work.
Angel Perez:
And knowing that it's college admission season or your senior year, what are other things in your life that maybe you put on hold, right." I think we've all been trained like everything has-
Lee Coffin:
No, that's right. That's right.
Angel Perez:
... to be done this year. And I now realize, one; everything can't be done this year.
Lee Coffin:
No, I think that's a really important-
Angel Perez:
That's important.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. My unnamed niece did exactly that, where she's in drama and there's a fall play, and she did not audition much to my surprise. And I said, "Why not?" And she said, "I've got too much going on right now and I need..." And I said, "Good."
Angel Perez:
Good for her.
Lee Coffin:
"That was very mature." So I share that as an example of high school seniors, take care of yourself. Know when you need to hit pause.
Angel Perez:
Know your limits.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, know your limits. So these have been wonderful.
Angel Perez:
We can talk about so many more, I've got time.
Lee Coffin:
I know, well, before I let you go, I did want to ask you kind of an adjacent question. So a couple of times you've mentioned writing and that you've written a book. So to listeners, Angel is the author of a book called, 'The Hottest Seat on Campus', and it's a reflection on being a dean of admission or a chief enrollment officer. So just for the audience, why is that seat hot?
Angel Perez:
Yes. And first of all, thank you for being one of the people who said yes to being interviewed.
Lee Coffin:
I said, yes.
Angel Perez:
Yes. I'm glad. Hopefully that was a hell, yes when there was an invitation.
Lee Coffin:
Yes, it was hell, yes.
Angel Perez:
But I felt really passionate about writing this book because I think a lot of people, especially high school seniors and parents, may see the dean of admission job as this prestigious powerful role. It can be that, but it's also a lot of pressure. Deans are pulled in a lot of different directions. There is an extraordinary amount of pressure, especially now around meeting institutional goals and revenue goals and enrollment goals. And I felt really strongly that it was time to write a book that was going to give the next generation of people who are going to do Lee's job, now and in the future, a toolkit. And also to learn from their stories.
And so I've been humbled by the reception. I think the title alone has really resonated. Someone posted on LinkedIn, "You should have called it, 'It's a Scorcher." So I thought, "Hot Seat' was pretty good.
Lee Coffin:
Oh, that's good.
Angel Perez:
But this person said, 'Scorcher'. I think it's our way, those that were interviewed for the book to try to prepare the next generation of leaders in the field.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Well, I'm realizing even as you're answering my question, it's another version of what I wish I knew.
Angel Perez:
Yes.
Lee Coffin:
From those of us who are in the hot seat, we're saying through you, here's what you should know as you start, or if you want this job, because it is, as you say in the opening of the book, it's a wonderful job. It's an interesting job. It's a purposeful role, but it can be a lot.
Angel Perez:
Yeah, it can.
Lee Coffin:
It's funny, Angel, all of the strategies we've been discussing is, I'm thinking about it, are very true to-
Angel Perez:
Are in the book.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, it's sort of my roadmap. I mean, control where I can control. It's a guide for a lot of things. But where can people find this book if they want to read it?
Angel Perez:
Yeah. Actually Amazon. You can go on Amazon. If you want to be really nerdy like me, you can go to Harvard Ed Press, which is the publisher, but most people are getting it on Amazon.
Lee Coffin:
Okay.
Angel Perez:
Yeah, it's called the 'Hottest Seat on Campus'.
Lee Coffin:
I read it. It rang true to me as somebody who's in that said seat. And I gave it to a couple of people on my team who are-
Angel Perez:
Oh, good.
Lee Coffin:
... Dean aspirants themselves. I said, "Read this and then let's talk."
Angel Perez:
We have a couple of universities who reached out. They're having their teams read it, and it's going to be like a book discussion, just kind of also unveiling the mystery of what is it the dean at this institution does?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, very good.
Angel Perez:
And a couple of boards are reading it as well. So I'm excited about it.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. No. So let's think about some advice to high school seniors and their parents as they gather for Thanksgiving dinners a couple days from now. And people say, "Angel, where are you going in college?" "Lee? What's happening in your admission search?" What does the students say while they're trying to eat some turkey and potatoes?
Angel Perez:
I think it's really important to hold your cards actually kind of close. And it's okay to say, "Hey, I'm applying to a variety of different institutions. I'm keeping my mind open." But I do think this process is deeply personal, and I don't think students should feel the pressure to share where they're applying or what they're thinking or the why. Keeping it a little bit vague and open and reminding people, you're looking at a lot of different choices and hopefully, and you're saying this with truth and care, "I'm excited that I'll be happy at a lot of different places." And that is true.
Lee Coffin:
Yep. That's my advice too. I have a version of this question every season at this moment, and my quick line is, "I'm pleased with my search. Thanks for asking." And just leave it that.
Angel Perez:
I love it.
Lee Coffin:
Unless you want advice. If you're open to Uncle Tom giving you a homily, then go for it. But if you want to just keep your own counsel, it's okay to politely say, "Things are in good shape, tell you in the spring." And just let it go.
Angel Perez:
Not where. I think that's great advice in your schools too. I used to say to students, "Don't feel the pressure to tell all your friends in your senior class where you're applying. That's your story. It's personal, right?"
Lee Coffin:
Right.
Angel Perez:
So you can say, like Lee said, "I'm really pleased with my search. Excited about the road ahead."
Lee Coffin:
All right. We're going to leave it on a happy note there. Angel Perez, thank you so much for joining me on Admission Beat for your strategies to move forward.
Angel Perez:
Great to be here. Thanks again.
Lee Coffin:
All right, we’re going to leave it on a happy note there. Angel Perez, thank you so much for joining me On Admissions Beat for your strategies to move forward.
Angel Perez:
Great to be here. Thanks again.
Lee Coffin:
Admissions is in the home stretch of Season Eight. We’ve got a few more episodes before we wrap. Next week on Admissions Beat—Shonda Rhimes, television producer and screenwriter, founder of Shondaland, Dartmouth class of ’91 joins us for a conversation about storytelling. Perfectly in her wheelhouse and I’m excited to share this episode with you next week but for now this is Lee Coffin from Dartmouth College. Thanks for listening.