In the eighth season premiere, AB host Lee Coffin and his guests map the shift from discovering college options to applying to those choices. As high school seniors embrace the next phase of their college search, the Dartmouth dean is joined by a guidance counselor from Connecticut and the deans from Colorado College and Princeton as they offer tips about refining a college list, pondering whether a “frontrunner” has emerged or not, and developing a plan to manage the preparation of the application itself. “It’s time to embrace uncertainty and trust a good result,” Colorado’s Karen Kristof advises.
In the eighth season premiere, AB host Lee Coffin and his guests map the shift from discovering college options to applying to those choices. As high school seniors embrace the next phase of their college search, the Dartmouth dean is joined by a guidance counselor from Connecticut and the deans from Colorado College and Princeton as they offer tips about refining a college list, pondering whether a “frontrunner” has emerged or not, and developing a plan to manage the preparation of the application itself. “It’s time to embrace uncertainty and trust a good result,” Colorado’s Karen Kristof advises.
Lee Coffin:
From Hanover, New Hampshire, I'm Lee Coffin, Dartmouth's vice president and dean of admission and financial aid, and this is the season premiere of Admissions Beat.
If pumpkin lattes are back at your favorite coffee house, that means it's back to school. That means the class of 2026 has made the journey from being a junior in the discovery phase to being a rising senior to being a senior. So seniors, you have risen. It's time to get serious. This season, starting today, we will give you a road map to get you from the start of senior year to your application deadline in November or January, whichever one makes sense for you, and this week we'll start with a how-to guide. So when we come back, my three guests and I will have some overview for you about what senior fall looks like, what you should be doing, and how you take that list, check it twice, and make some informed decisions about where you end up applying. We'll be right back.
(Music)
I'm excited to welcome back two friends of the pod, Karen Kristof, the assistant vice president and dean of admissions at Colorado College. Hi again, Karen.
Karen Kristof:
Hi, Lee. So happy to be here.
Lee Coffin:
Nice to have you.
Karen Kristof:
So excited to give some advice to the seniors who are all risen and ready to go.
Lee Coffin:
You were a guest on one of the first episodes of season seven when we gave a junior kick-off to this class, now they're in the senior kick-off mode, so happy to have you back for round two.
Karen Kristof:
So fun to be back, thank you.
Lee Coffin:
So fun to have you back. Also returning is Vanessa Montorsi, the director of Pupil Services and Counseling at Fairfield Ludlowe High School in Connecticut. Hi, Vanessa.
Vanessa Montorsi:
Hey, Lee. Thanks again for having me. Appreciate it.
Lee Coffin:
Always happy to have you. And for listeners, in addition to her work at Fairfield Ludlowe, Vanessa is the treasurer of the New England Association for College Admission Counseling, which we call NEACAC. And that means she's one of the leaders in the New England region of our profession, so she brings a really interesting perspective across higher ed and secondary ed as it relates to college admissions. And making her debut on Admissions Beat is my old friend and colleague, Karen Richardson, the dean of admissions at Princeton University. Hi, Karen.
Karen Richardson:
Thanks for having me.
Lee Coffin:
So we're in this back-to-school moment. Vanessa, you just reopened, I think, a couple of days ago, you've had all the kids return from summer. What's that like?
Vanessa Montorsi:
We did. There's a lot of nervous energy in the building. Kids, you have the newcomers, the new ninth graders, obviously they're pretty nervous, now they're in this big bad high school with 1,300-plus kids. But then, you have the kids, like you're saying, the seniors, now they're the old folks on campus and they should know what they're doing, but they really don't, so there are a little bit of nerves there. But it's really exciting to be back though.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Well, I think the senior year also brings nerves because there's this big process that's unfolding and it's not just, oh, I'm back to school, it's like, I have a big assignment I have to navigate.
Vanessa Montorsi:
Yeah, their life is about to change in a year, so they need to make some tough decisions. So yeah, it's go-to time.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. But it's funny, because back-to-school was always such an important moment for me when I was a kid, I'm wondering if any of you have a back-to-school memory from your own high school or elementary school.
Karen Kristof:
Yeah. So I remember being at a small Catholic middle school in the Midwest, and that meant setting aside the shorts and t-shirts and going back to the school uniform. So for anyone, any senior who is excited to shed the school uniform when they go to college, congratulations, you're in the last year of your school uniform.
Was it plaid?
Karen Kristof:
It was plaid. And I would say my sartorial incompetence really showed after I graduated from this Catholic middle school, because I knew how to wear white crisp shirts and plaid skirts and maybe a sweater in the Chicagoland winter. But otherwise, I was sort of a disaster, and still kind of am when it comes to making wardrobe decisions in the morning. So if anyone can relate to that, I'm your person.
Lee Coffin:
There you go. My funny story was in kindergarten, which I don't know how I remember that far back, but I was in the morning kindergarten and we got on the bus to go home and the bus driver got lost, pulled over and asked a milkman for directions. And I was sitting in the front seat with my neighbor, Tina, and we were holding hands, and I was watching the milkman talk to the bus driver, and I got upset and I stood up and yelled to the rest of the bus, "We're lost, we're never going to see our mommies again," at which point, the whole bus burst into tears.
And the bus driver got back on, and somehow I knew where we were and I gave the bus driver directions back to my bus stop, and my mother tells the story of the bus pulling up and there were a few of us who got off, everybody on the bus was crying, and the five of us got off and hugged our mommies, and then the bus rolled away with the other 30 kids on it looking so sad, and I'm like, oh my God. So that was my back-to-school story. I'm a troublemaker even then, Karen.
Karen Richardson:
You got that bus driver fired.
Lee Coffin:
I think he came back. But back-to-school is emotional, and I think whether you're a kindergartener worried about never seeing mommy again because the milk man didn't know where we were either or just you're a senior and you're coming back and you've got work to do. And so, let's talk about the work this class is going to do. So the seniors have risen, now what? Vanessa, when someone shows up in your doorway, what's the question you get most at the beginning of senior year?
Vanessa Montorsi:
Yeah. Kind of like, where do I start the process? I think we do a pretty good job of walking them through, starting junior year. So for us, we're going to meet with our seniors next week, which I think the majority of high schools in the area will be doing, and essentially, they should have a list now. They have their list, and now it's a finalized list. And probably the question is, how do I narrow that list down? And we talk about the different Fs, if you will. What's your focus? What is it academically you want to focus on? What programs or colleges have those types of programs? And then, even the non-academic priorities, do they have clubs that you want to participate in, sports, things like that? We talk about fellowship a little bit, what do you want for the connection of how you're going to connect to those different schools? How is your life going to look like beyond just the academic piece of it?
One of the things that we've talked a lot about these last couple of years is the financial fit. I think people enter into this college process forgetting there's a price tag associated with it, and they want these certain schools, not realizing some schools now are six figures, it's very real, so thinking about that. Another F we talk about is their future beyond college, that connection to maybe the alumni network or getting a job after college, because we focus so much on college, but it's only four years and we forget we're actually doing this for the rest of our life, that's really what we're preparing for. And one of those other Fs we talk about is family, that distance that you're going to be away from home. Is there maybe a parent or a loved one that is sick and that you actually need to be closer? Can you go far away? So there's a lot of different factors that we start to talk to the kids about, and their parents, to take into consideration.
Lee Coffin:
I love that, I've never heard anyone refer to the Fs as a way of focusing your list. Our two Karens, Karen Kristof and Karen Richardson, I'll say KK and KR, do you have any additions to that or comments about the Fs?
Karen Richardson:
I love that you focus on things beyond the academics, because we find that students change their minds a lot about what they might want to study and are exposed to so many new types of academics that they might not have experienced in high school that they don't even know exist yet. And I think the dirty secret is that you spend more time outside of class than you do in, so you want to make sure that you're at a place that you're going to find connection and want to be engaged.
Karen Kristof:
I also appreciate that F list, I think that's a really easy and handy way to think about it. A school down the road here in Colorado Springs does an annual admission boot camp at the beginning of August, and I go for an hour and just throw out some advice and tips and take questions. This was the first time that I've had a student, a high school senior, just about to start the process, ask, "How do you make friends at college?" And I thought, oh gosh, what a very lovely and vulnerable question that he asked. But also, I think those are the kinds of things that are maybe the questions beneath the questions. So of course, there's lots of thoughts about, should I submit my standardized testing if it's optional? Where should I apply? Am I going to get in? How does this process roll? But also, remembering there's a real human there that feels vulnerable and is really looking for advice about how to navigate it all, from start to finish. So I love the way that that's very holistic and very sophisticated and complete in a way, so thank you, that's terrific.
Lee Coffin:
And I'm trying to imagine another F that points towards enjoying your senior year, because I think it's easy to look past 12th grade, or whatever it's called in your country, and see college as that's the goal, and it's an important goal. But I remember my senior year of high school as being one of the best years of my life in all sorts of ways that represent being 17 and having a bit more freedom, there's the F, and I had a job and I was able to come and go a little bit more freely. That was different than 11th grade and 10th grade, and certainly ninth grade. I guess my opening comment to the seniors is don't ignore the year you're in.
So Vanessa is helping people think about a final list, what advice do you give high school students around shaping that list, around fit? When is a student applying to too many places? What's a good number? I've heard college counselors say a handful of reaches, a few likelies, a bunch in the middle that are possible. My advice would be no more than 10 or 12. I've also heard students come up to me in the spring and say, "I applied to 30 places," and I think unnecessary. From the college admission side, how does someone shape a list in September versus go wild, discover everything in March and April and May and June and now you have to start to let go of some places?
Karen Richardson:
When you were saying people applying to 30 different schools, when I applied to school decades ago, I applied to four schools, and looking back, I probably should have leaned in and thought about a couple of more schools than just four. But I think no more than 10 to 12, especially if you're going to really put your all into each of those applications, because it's not about just writing one thing and submitting to different schools. Every school is a little bit different and every school is trying to learn about who you are and who you might be as part of that campus. It should be a process that you are putting your time into. Do you have enough time to apply to 30 schools and put your whole authentic self into it?
I already mentioned that I always encourage students to think about not only the academic focus that they want to have, but recognizing that sometimes that will change and sometimes they will learn about new things. But also about, do I want to be on a large campus where I see and meet new people all the time, or do I want to be on a smaller, more intimate campus where I have a smaller group of people that I'm getting to know really well and that I will know a lot of people by the time I graduate? Geography is a big part of it too. Vanessa was mentioning, do I want to be close to my family? Do I want to be far away from them? I encourage students to think about all of those things beyond just the, I want to be a chemistry major, because the truth is, you might change your mind after you take a philosophy class.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Karen Kristof, give them some confidence to trust their gut. So when we talked about discovery, we said, "Go, look, see, feel, taste, touch." They've done that, hopefully. How do they know they should trust themselves to lean into a place that feels right and to let go to a place that maybe is fizzing on them?
Karen Kristof:
I think part of that is what you just said, which is have confidence in what you have observed. I always think that students are looking for the vibe, that the campus visit is as much about sitting attentively while the admission officer gives the long 45-minute presentation and going on the campus tour. But even on the campus tour, there are things that you're seeing, but it's almost intuiting the things that are not just the buildings. What do you feel when you walk through the building? What do you feel when you walk through the student center? If you got lost on the way to the admission office... Of course, that never happens, because colleges always have such clear signage, right? But let's say that happens on the way to the Colorado College admission office, did you feel like there was a friendly student that wanted to help you out?
There are times when you visit a college campus and sometimes people are stressed or the weather is terrible or it's exam time and nobody wants to talk to anybody, but I think just really trying to trust that gut feeling. I always think about it as, am I going to fit in and am I going to feel comfortable? And the challenge really is you're going to change as a student over those four years, so try to think of a place that can grow with you. Will it be the sort of place that when you move in, you will feel like I can see this becoming my community, these are people I want to engage with, these are professors I want to learn from? And can you also see yourself on that day of commencement, that day of graduation, really turning into this best and more sophisticated, more seasoned version of yourself, and do you see the institution growing with you?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. You've added another F to Vanessa's list, you're saying feel, which I think is really important, because that's such an abstract but important thing. If you don't feel it, I can't tell you if you feel it, but you know when you're on that tour or you're reading through the material or following along on Instagram, you're like, I just don't see myself here. I remember getting one of my places, I kept looking at the view book in the days when we had view books and just absorbing things, and I said to my mother, "I don't know if I see myself here." And what was interesting is I still applied to that place even though I wasn't sure, and I didn't get in, and I think I didn't get in because it wasn't a good fit, and I kind of knew that, but for whatever reason, I just kept it going, and I think trusting that feel is a really powerful part of this.
And also, Vanessa, I wonder, how do you get a student and parents to be honest about a reach? Because I think the reach can be catnip and a reach hangs on the list, or maybe multiple reaches, longer than it should. You want to honor ambition, and you honor someone's goal of getting something that's maybe harder to get, but at what point does someone have to say, "I explored it, I don't know that this is a realistic option"? How do you counsel someone through that?
Vanessa Montorsi:
Yeah, and that's really difficult for counselors, because we have to have this nice relationship with these families and show them that we support them, and also have to be honest with them if it's not going to work out, and that's a lot of times where we'll let the data speak for itself. A lot of schools either use Naviance, we use SchooLinks here, and both systems use what's called scattergrams. So we use that and we look at students with similar GPAs versus their SAT or ACT scores, and did those students get into that particular college or not? So it really allows you to look at the student that you're currently working and use their data versus other students' data and did they get in or not get in to that particular school, so that really always does help. And obviously, major might have an impact on that, but that's where we use that information to help guide us with those conversations.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. I've heard parents say, in reaction to a reach assessment, "We know, but let's just see what happens."
Vanessa Montorsi:
Yeah. Ultimately, it's the parent's choice. If you want to spend that $50, $75, $100 on the application, go for it. But let's be realistic, and it is a reach school, so let's round out this list and come up with some other schools that it's going to be an academic fit and it's also going to be a financial fit too, so we talk about the various different fits, and let's make sure we have some schools you can get into to all of those areas.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. And just for listeners, we'll come back to financial fit in a couple of weeks and do an episode around FAFSA and financial aid, so we'll dig deep if that's an important part of your shaping. But I think this first step, I have this list, I've explored it, I have to sort it, Karens, what's your reaction to the let's see what happens instinct?
Karen Kristof:
I don't want to be a dream crusher either. This is such a stressful process, this is so high anxiety. I would never want to... And I so appreciate what Vanessa's saying about let's look at the data, let's see what the data suggests. And of course, somebody gets into lots of places, even places with single digit admit rates. But that's not a plan, that's not a strategy, that's not a I'm putting my best foot forward. And there's things you can control in the process and things you can't control in the process, and I think that's an important lesson in celebrating what you can control and also beginning to understand that there are things that really are not within your control.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. And Karen Kristof, you just prompted another F, fretting, fretting about things you can't control is something just to think about. A reach is telling you the odds are long, not that you shouldn't apply, but you should go in wide-eyed. And I work for a place with a tiny acceptance rate, the nos outnumber the yeses, but there are yeses, and you just want to be clear-eyed as you begin and not just let the rosy, let's see what happens. Well, it's not a lottery ticket, you want to be intentional about the way you proceed.
Karen Richardson:
Exactly, exactly. I always say that the one way to guarantee that you won't be admitted somewhere is to not apply. But you absolutely do have to be clear-eyed about it and recognize that there are multiple factors that are in play, some that you can control and some that you can't.
Lee Coffin:
Yep. So this premiere is airing on September 9th, so we're now in 60-day range of the first deadlines, so if you're a senior and you're in this back-to-school moment, you're looking at places you've considered, you're sussing out the fit and the feel, what plan of action should someone ponder if one place has started to emerge as a front-runner? Oh, another F, front-runner. Now, you're not forcing the front-runner, but you can find yourself really paying attention to one place more than others. Vanessa, when is that early decision or when is that early action and when is it okay to wait?
Vanessa Montorsi:
I'll speak just from being in Fairfield. We have a lot of students that are going to apply early decision or early action, so those are those conversations that we're going to be having at that point. If this is your front-runner, are you ready to do a binding contract with early decision, knowing you might not get any financial aid, or do you want to apply early action? So those are the conversations we traditionally tease out with students at that time. But we do hound them about those deadlines, because they're very real and they're close, and a lot of these schools have supplemental essays and other parts of the application that they have to complete. That's great if they have a front-runner, but just make sure that you're aware of those deadlines that are around.
Lee Coffin:
And the deans, any advice for financial aid students who have fallen in love and they're like, should I go or should I wait?
Karen Kristof:
So I think the first thing I would advocate for is something called a net price calculator. There are lots of different kinds of tools on websites, but it's actually a requirement that all colleges and universities have a net price calculator. So that's a really good place to start, particularly, here's another F for you, Lee, if you've fallen in love with a particular institution, that you have checked out what that might look like.
And the way for the parents listening to this to think about the net price calculator is it's not as bad as doing your taxes, but you probably want to have all your numbers in front of you, because the net price calculator, whatever tool you use on whatever institution's website, will be a better estimate if you've got the right numbers in front of you. So I think that's a good place to start. There's also conversations with the financial aid office. And really, at the end of the day, if it turns out that you went into this very much like, we think we can make this work, but it doesn't really turn out that it does, you can be excused from that binding commitment if the financial aid is not sufficient for you to be able to say yes.
Lee Coffin:
And just as an example, we had four students last year who we offered early admission to, who got a financial aid award and said, "I don't see how this works." And we reviewed it and we did what we could to amend it, and sometimes that works and sometimes it's like, "No, this is your need-based award." And in each of those cases, the student said, "I can't do this." Binding is not inalterable when the finances make it so.
So thoughts on the student who says, "I don't know that I have a first choice, but I feel like I must apply early"? Vanessa, do you get that nervous, that fretting your way into early action, early decision? I guess early decision is the more consequential of the two.
Vanessa Montorsi:
We do get that, because it's such a buzz here in this school, and we remind kids, you're going to get in someplace, as long it's the right fit and everything aligns data-wise, you're going to be fine. Plenty of kids get in through regular admission status, don't force the issue, don't stress about doing ED or EA. There are thousands and thousands of kids every year that get in with regular admission and that's okay. The student and the parent, they need to feel comfortable with this.
Karen Richardson:
You shouldn't force a first choice to go early. I think sometimes it's thought of as a strategy, and so therefore I need to apply early somewhere. But if that's not your first choice, if that's not the place that you are absolutely just dying to go to, that's probably not the place to apply early.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, yeah, I agree. Okay, so let's back up a step. So the deadlines are coming, the applications are now open. So Common App, for example, went live on August 1st. So Common App is open, the supplements are there, what should students be doing in September?
Karen Kristof:
Yeah. I think starting, as that list is being refined, starting to look at what the requirements are for every institution, because that gets into... We can go a lot of different directions in this. That gets into should I be submitting test scores? Are they required, are they optional? If they're optional, how do I think about optional? But really beginning to dig into some of those supplements. So in addition to the main common application essay, many of us have shorter writing samples, and they really get into how could you express your interest in us and how could we get to that understanding of why you've decided to apply. And so, those are not the night before kinds of assignments, any good writer will tell you that you've got to let the writing breathe, you've got to do some drafts, you've got to do some thinking, you've got to think as much as you actually put fingers to the keyboard, that the thinking process is probably as important or more important than the actual writing process.
So this is an opportunity to use whatever tools. Are you a whiteboard person? Put all the deadlines on your whiteboard. Are you the kind of person that's going to have an Excel sheet? And one piece of advice that I've heard over and over again that I love is think about getting ready with your earliest deadline. So if you have an early deadline, in the state of Colorado, if you apply to our neighbors to the north, the University of Colorado at Boulder, generally speaking, you've got to get your stuff done by early October. So if that's your earliest deadline, you can also be preparing your application to Dartmouth and Princeton and Colorado College along the way, because that's your first deadline, you're getting all your things set and ready to go.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah.
Karen Richardson:
I would hop in there with it's also a chance to really assess and assess again if this is your list. So the supplemental questions, because they are college-specific, the colleges and universities tend to ask you questions that are about their values and about what's important to them and about finding and building their community. And so, I always tell students, if you read through the supplemental questions and you're having a really hard time answering the questions or they just don't resonate with you, you might want to rethink if that's the community that you want to be in. Don't apply to a school just for the name, apply because there's something there that clicks for you.
Lee Coffin:
That's all good advice. So the apps are there, you can make a record, start to fill it out, go to your teachers sooner than later and ask for a recommendation. Vanessa, I'm guessing teachers appreciate sooner rather than later?
Vanessa Montorsi:
Yeah. We always tell our students to do it at the end of junior year or throughout the summer, but if they haven't done it yet, just for the people listening to the podcast, do it as soon as possible, because teachers take this seriously and they want to support their students. So give them three weeks leeway and I think they're pretty good.
Lee Coffin:
Any tips on what type of teacher should be requested?
Vanessa Montorsi:
Yeah, definitely at least one academic teacher, if not two. Obviously, if you're going to go into a science or STEM field, you're going to want at least one science or math teacher to be part of it. Someone, obviously, you have a good relationship with and that can speak to you as to a student and how you are in that class. You want that teacher to be able to demonstrate your character in that class and not just reiterate what was on your transcript, because you as college admissions folks already get to see that, so you don't want that. You want an actual story and the character of that particular student in their letter.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. One of the Karens, you want to talk about how a teacher rec animates a file?
Karen Richardson:
Sure. I always say that because we don't have the opportunity to sit down and have a half an hour conversation with every applicant, we really rely on the people who know them well to introduce them to the selection committee. And so, I completely agree with you, Lee, it shouldn't just be someone who can say that they came to class every day and did their work and this, that and the other thing, it should be somebody who can tell us more than that they showed up to class every day, somebody who can speak to who they are as part of the classroom, who they are as part of the school community. Sometimes I tell students, it's not always the class where you got the easy A that should be writing the letter for you, because the place where you had to work a little bit harder, do some extra credit work, that teacher can write about your grit and your tenacity and tells us a lot more than just the grades on the transcript.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. And for smaller places, we're looking for some evidence of class participation, like, what would you be like in a more discussion-oriented curriculum as opposed to a huge place where you might be listening in a lecture hall a bit more than jumping into a conversation? So think about the teachers over 11th and 12th grade especially who can bring firsthand witness to that as a way of thinking about who might tell your story with you. Because I think for applicants, the thing you need to keep reminding yourself is you are the primary author of your own application, but there are other voices in there, your guidance counselor, your teacher or two, maybe a peer if that's part of a file, maybe an interviewer. So that's three, four, five other humans who jump into your narrative in their own words, and most of those examples, you get to choose who is joining the chorus on your behalf, so do it thoughtfully. What else should a senior be doing, essays, drafts, interviewing?
Karen Richardson:
I think interviewing never hurts you, unless you don't show up to the interview or you don't say anything once you get there. I think that interviews, they're conducted differently everywhere, they might be done by the admission staff or by alumni or by seniors at the college or the university, but they're all opportunities to learn a little bit more about the school, but also for you to put something else out there that then becomes a part of your narrative. So I encourage students, if you have the opportunity to do an interview, to do it.
Karen Kristof:
Many of our teams will be getting on the road, packing our bags and going off to meet students in lots of different kinds of settings. So we want you to, as students, go to class and do all the things you need to do when you're in the school building. But also, if you have an opportunity, to engage with us, we always appreciate that, because it is an opportunity for you perhaps to ask that question that's a little bit more nuanced. And so, I always encourage students, if you are going to have an opportunity to meet a college rep, that your question isn't, "Do you have a biology department?" For example, because guess what? You can find that in all of our print materials and our website. But, "What makes the biology program distinctive?" Or, "I've done this particular research on this particular microbe, how might that look if I did that work at your institution?" You don't have to pitch yourself as a student, but these are opportunities really to get those nuanced, a little bit deeper questions answered.
And I think we all talk to our teams as we go out and do this work about being friendly and open and accessible, because I might say, "Oh gosh, I have to give presentations at four high schools today," but the students are just feeling nervous and a little vulnerable. And so, our teams are going to try to be really friendly, no question is too silly. We want to get to know you and we want to do our best to let you know what our institutions are about. And you might decide, oh gosh, I don't see myself there, and that can be a really good revelation, or I absolutely see myself there and I just really didn't even know this institution existed. So I think keeping that open mind and open heart is also useful at this time.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. I like your example of biology, Karen, because we get that a lot, do you have English? Do you have biology? Do you have political science? And I think hiding below that question is the opportunity to be much more personal. So you might be like... My niece is really interested in birds, so under the umbrella of biology, I did a visit with her this summer and I said, "Ask the question."
And she said, "Do you teach any courses on ornithology?"
And the answer was, "No, that's not really..." And she was disappointed.
But I said, "But that's important, because if you're looking at zoology with birds as a focus and this college doesn't do it, that's a clue."
Or if it did do it, that's an answer to the why blank question, because you're like, I'm really attracted to your program in marine biology because I'm thinking about doing research on seagulls. Now, you might not have that specific an answer, but you might know, in the English example, I like to write or I like to read Victorian literature or I'm a poet or I want to write plays, all very different versions of "English," quote-unquote, and every college won't teach it exactly the same way, and those are the kind of refinements that you find as you continue to discover. But also, when you've discovered them, pop them into your interview, into your supplement, into your essays, as a way of showing us, hey, this is a fit.
Vanessa Montorsi:
Get your personality out there, let the colleges know who you are and what you're about. And to Karen's point, just talking about college visits, we really encourage our students to attend the college visits when college reps come and visit our school, such a great way to make that connection. And sometimes, there's only a couple of students in there, so you're making a personal direct connection with probably the person that's going to read your application file, so it's a great thing to take advantage of.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, that's a really good tip, if someone's visiting your high school, and every high school won't get a visit from every college, but if someone's coming, the odds are good that that person will see your application down the road, and it's always nice to have a face with the PDF that shows up in January.
What about a testing plan? So we're in this space where Karen Kristof mentioned some places are test required, some places are test optional, so there's two questions here. Vanessa, how does a senior start to think about the role of testing in the application they're filing, and in the fall, is there time to take another test? What's the testing strategy you would advise someone this fall?
Vanessa Montorsi:
Yeah. So to answer your question, could they take a test, I think they could potentially get one more test in for September. They should get their results back in enough time if they're hitting for a November 1st deadline. So for those folks listening, you could take a test essentially if you want another score. It's really for those test optional schools. If there's a test optional school, we advise students to submit their scores if they hit that average score that was admitted to that particular college or university the year before. So a lot of times, we'll look at a university's common data, I think, set or point it's called. So we'll take a look, again, looking at that data, to help us guide and direct should that student submit their scores. So it really needs to fall in that average-ish range. Otherwise, we're going to say, "You know what? Let's not submit those scores."
Lee Coffin:
Princeton, Colorado, advice to your test optional applicants?
Karen Richardson:
Well, the first thing I would say is that when a school says it's test optional, you should believe them and recognize that you're not going to be at a disadvantage if you do not submit testing. I think the challenge with looking at the average or the middle 50% is that those are all skewing higher at schools that are still test optional, because students who have high testing are the ones who are submitting and that's where that middle 50% is drawing from. My advice is, particularly if you are looking at a heavily quantitative major, so our engineers, for example, if you are feeling good about that testing, especially the math testing, is something that we would likely want to see. So some of it boils down to thinking ahead about what you tell us you're interested in and how you're feeling about those scores, and then really having a conversation with your school counselor. Unfortunately, I can't answer that question when I meet you in a high school, that has to be an individual student's decision.
Karen Kristof:
Yeah, I think all good points. I'm both a test optional advocate and an advocate for taking tests regardless, having those scores available to you as something that you could potentially submit. I think Karen R. does a lovely job of talking about when you're looking at a particular program, it might make a lot of sense. As a small liberal arts college, Colorado College is a little bit more independent in this regard. And so, two years ago I asked our staff, "Could we think about a no harm test optional policy?" I don't have a fancy word for it, but that's the best way to describe it.
We decided, and there's a couple of other institutions that are doing it, but to go a little rogue and say, "We're going to help you with this. If you submit a score that doesn't enhance your chances for admission, we're going to really set it aside on your behalf. We don't want to be the one that's the guardian of whether you should or whether you shouldn't, but we also don't want you, for example, if you're at a high school where a score that would be well below what we would normally admit, but is a good score in the context of your high school, we don't want to tell you not to submit. But we feel so strongly about we have enough without it as we're reviewing your application that we're happy to just bypass it if it doesn't do something to showcase who you are as a student and who you might be in one of our classrooms."
Lee Coffin:
Well, Karen, you just gave me opportunity to chime in from the required cohort. One of the things we started doing, while we were test optional during the pandemic, was to look at the score in the context of the high school where it was produced. I think to applicants wondering, how does my score stack up? Go to your guidance office and ask Vanessa this question, "What's the mean score of my senior class and what's the 75th percentile of the senior class," and how does your score compare to that 50th and 75th percentile?
And as we finished our first cycle of reinstated testing, 90% of our class had scores that were in the top 25% of their senior class, and in some cases, they were hundreds of points higher than the 75th percentile. But it's an environmental assessment, it's looking at you in a more local way and not just, here's the mean of the class that came together. You might be at a rural public high school where not that many people take the SAT or the ACT, and you took it and your scores are significantly higher than the local norms, that's a great score, that will count in your favor. So it's another way of having a little more agency for yourself and asking your guidance counselor for a little bit more detail from inside your school.
Vanessa, did you hear me say that? Does that make sense? It's probably not the way a lot of colleges are talking about testing, but as opposed to just saying, "My average score is X."
Vanessa Montorsi:
It makes a ton of sense, absolutely, yeah, because you need to know where that particular student is coming from too and the opportunities that they had while they were in high school. Because when you're dealing with kids all across the country, some kids are able to take eight APs a year, when some high schools might not even have any or very few, so the opportunities are vast. And just to your point, Lee, for most students listening or parents listening, most high schools are going to create what's called a school profile, and that information will be really helpful to you as a family to see where your student falls with those numbers against their school.
Lee Coffin:
So great advice. So some of our listeners may be slower to the party, and we've been talking as if everybody popped out of the college admission canon in February and has been doing their homework all the way since, but I'm guessing there are some parents that have a child who is wandering into senior fall and hasn't done a damn thing just yet. So I feel your pain, parents. How do we help that late-breaking college search? Is it too late? Can you combine discovery and applying in a three-month sprint? Vanessa, what do you do when someone shows up and says, "I didn't visit any campuses, I don't know what I'm doing yet, oh my gosh, the deadlines are coming"?
Vanessa Montorsi:
Yeah, that's okay. Take a deep breath, relax, you're okay, you're not too late. Don't fall into that trap. You have plenty of time to start the process, and there's schools that have rolling admissions, and that's okay too. So don't fall victim to the early decision, early action. There are plenty of schools out there with decision dates much, much later. So you can still start the process now and you're going to be completely fine.
Lee Coffin:
When is it too late?
Vanessa Montorsi:
June, I would say June.
Lee Coffin:
Okay, so that's encouraging. So if you are really a turtle crawling forward, you've got many, many more weeks to get this sorted out. I don't advise it, and I think for those of you eyeing a selective admission process, it's not June.
Vanessa Montorsi:
No, definitely not June.
Lee Coffin:
You need to get up and start sprinting now, correct?
Vanessa Montorsi:
Yeah, I would say January 1st is a realistic deadline to start getting that stuff done.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, yeah. So as we wrap, last thoughts, advice, to the high school class of '26 and their parents as they begin the work of the work? They have to apply in the next couple of months, tell their story in their own words with clarity and confidence to the places on their refined list, that's the task.
Vanessa Montorsi:
Be true to yourself, be honest with yourself, and find the place that you feel good when you're walking on campus and that's going to be the right fit for you.
Karen Richardson:
As you're refining that list, get beyond the admission office propaganda, because we're going to tell you all the good things about our campuses. If you visit a campus, get beyond the tour, go to the student center, eavesdrop on our current students. What do they talk about? How do they interact with one another? Read the school paper online. Current students will tell you what's happening on campus, for sure. So figure out different ways to get a feel for a campus.
Karen Kristof:
I was thinking this morning about how this process can be really challenging, but that we all know on this call that there are great results. And so, it's a little bit like embracing the uncertainty, but expecting a good result, going into it thinking this will be a challenging process, but we will get there. And we could all tell you a million stories if we had three more hours about students who find the right spot, who do well, who thrive, and we love partnering with students and families in this process. None of us are in this work except to do that, that is what gets us up in the morning, sometimes keeps us up at night, but also basically gets us up in the morning, is working with students and families and unpacking what can seem overly opaque and mysterious, because you got this. That would be my last three words.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. I wrote that down, Karen, embrace uncertainty and trust a good result, I like that as a slogan as you move into the heart of senior fall. My advice, having watched senior falls play out, my own senior fall many, many years ago, but as an admission officer since 1990, it seems like it's impossible, and then it works out. Every year, when I interview accepted students, they're always surprised and relieved that it worked. That doesn't mean there's no disappointment, that's part of it. You have to learn how to move forward, adjust as circumstances shift. But to trust that a well-conceived search, a list that's thoughtful, an application that's in your own words, hitting all the marks you want us to know about you, is going to lead to some invitations to join us. I've seen it happen over and over and over again.
And you also need, just for those of you in this selective space, that word selective means choices are made. We make them, you make them. And just owning that part of it will help inoculate you a little bit against disappointment. If you go in with wide eyes and say, "This is uncertain," your parents, you don't apply for a job and get it every time, same thing, and trusting your storytelling, partnering with the person in your school, tuning out noise, to the degree you can, I think that causes a lot of the jitters is when you hear too much and you don't know how to process that. But we'll be here every Tuesday to help you process that.
So Vanessa and the two Karens, thank you for helping me launch season eight. To everyone, we'll be back every Tuesday in your feed. Please subscribe wherever you get your pods, and we will have a new episode dropping Tuesday mornings, from now through Thanksgiving, early December, on a variety of topics. Next week, we'll be back with an episode about the headlines and all the admissions news that's swirling about. My recurring co-host, Jacques Steinberg, formerly of The New York Times, will join me for a conversation about everything we're reading and how to make sense of it as you stay focused on your search. But for now, I'm Lee Coffin from Dartmouth College, thanks for listening and see you soon.