This is the time of year when college admissions officers are invited to high schools for "junior kickoff" events, helping 11th graders get a sure-footed start on discovering, choosing, and applying to college. Consider this two-part episode a virtual kickoff, beginning with a roundup of news stories on the admissions beat, and followed, next week, by practical suggestions about how to begin your search. Lee Coffin's guests are Matt Hyde, assistant vice president and dean of admission at Lafayette College in Easton, Pa., and Kate Ramsdell, director of college counseling at Noble and Greenough School in Dedham, Mass.
This is the time of year when college admissions officers are invited to high schools for "junior kickoff" events, helping 11th graders get a sure-footed start on discovering, choosing, and applying to college. Consider this two-part episode a virtual kickoff, beginning with a roundup of news stories on the admissions beat, and followed, next week, by practical suggestions about how to begin your search. Lee Coffin's guests are Matt Hyde, assistant vice president and dean of admission at Lafayette College in Easton, Pa., and Kate Ramsdell, director of college counseling at Noble and Greenough School in Dedham, Mass.
Lee Coffin:
Dateline, a campus near you
Read all about it. Press releases, articles, blogs, news feeds, rankings, books, tweets, posts, podcasts. The head spins and swims in admissions updates. News, spin, lists, commentary, gossip. So much buzz, too much info. Too many opinions. I'm here to help. When the beat is loud, I'll turn down the volume. I'm Lee Coffin, Dartmouth's Dean of Admissions. Welcome to "The Admissions Beat" the pod for news, conversation, and advice on all things college admissions.
(Music)
Well, everyone, welcome back to "The Admissions Beat," and this episode is a double-dip. It is the latest episode of "The Admissions Beat," my current podcast, and it is a bonus episode of "The Search," navigating college admissions during a pandemic. So for all of you who are subscribers to my original podcast, welcome to "The Admission Beats". If like what you hear, you can subscribe anywhere you find your podcasts. And for those of you on "The Admission Beats" who have juniors in high school; back up and subscribe to "The Search," which will walk you step by step from the beginning to the end of your search. So I don't know, I feel like it's "Cheers" and "Fraser" all rolled up in one. And joining me today are two friends of the pod. Matt Hyde is assistant vice president and dean of admission at Lafayette college. Hi Matt.
Matt Hyde:
Hey Lee. Go leopards!
Lee Coffin:
Go leopards! And Kate Ramsdell is the director of college counseling at Noble and Greenough School in Dedham, Massachusetts. Hi Kate.
Kate Ramsdell:
Hi Lee, it's good to see you again.
Lee Coffin:
Nice to see you again too. And as always, Charlotte Albright is with me for newsroom. So let's get to it, Charlotte.
Charlotte Albright:
All right, Lee, I'm starting newsroom today with a quiz. I'm going to quiz you.
Lee Coffin:
Okay. Quiz.
Charlotte Albright:
I'm going to read a headline and you're going to try to guess what that story is and then you'll tell me a little bit more about it. So the headline in The New York Times— Yeah. You'll, you'll be graded.
Lee Coffin:
Is it multiple choice or is it open-ended quiz?
Charlotte Albright:
Open-ended.
Lee Coffin:
It's a free write.
Charlotte Albright:
Free write. The headline in The New York Times, January 25th: "Put down your number two pencils, forever". What's the story?
Lee Coffin:
It's the digital S.A.T.
Charlotte Albright:
The digital S.A.T. Hmm. Tell us more.
Lee Coffin:
Matt shook his head.
Matt Hyde
No. Any time you say S.A.T. you refer to as testing, I get sort of anxious and the anxiety starts flowing through my vein, so that's the reaction.
Lee Coffin:
So you're reacting to testing, not to digital.
Matt Hyde:
Well, sort of both, to tell you the truth.
Lee Coffin:
Okay. Kate, do you think whether you think of this?
Kate Ramsdell:
Oh, digital S.A.T. 100%.
Lee Coffin:
Okay. All right, Charlotte, what was the story?
Charlotte Albright:
Well, of course it's the digital S.A.T., but what's that; does that mean that you have to have a computer and excellent internet to take the S.A.T.?
Lee Coffin:
Well, what it means is the College Board will only offer the S.A.T. via a computer. So no more paper. And that's where the number two pencils are bye-bye. And maybe that's just a reflection of the 21st century. I mean, do you use a number two pencil for anything now, except maybe your math class?
Charlotte Albright:
But wait a minute, that doesn't mean that I'm taking it at home. It's the center that's digitized.
Lee Coffin:
Right. So the plan that they announced at the end of January is to offer an online version of the S.A.T. still in school or in a testing center with computers provided as needed for lower resource schools that might not have a computer lab or where the families don't have computers themselves.
And it will be shorter. So instead of three and a half hours, they're bringing the time frame back down to two. Same scoring system. So 800 on evidence-based reading and writing and math, I think up to 1600, starting with the international schools first. So that'll be the fall of '23, and then everybody after that. So we're still 18 months or so away from having this go live, but that's the story. The latest twist in the College Board saga. So Kate, you're shaking your head as you think about this. How did this land on your ears as a college counselor?
Kate Ramsdell:
I'm a little skeptical in the sense that there's a lot of infrastructure that needs to be in place for testing like this to happen. I'm thinking about a well-resourced school, like mine, where we have plenty of machines and we have stable internet, and we have lots of people to staff it. And I think it could go smoothly, but I do worry about kids and families who don't have access, and then showing up at the test site that might not also have machines for kids. And I'm a little bit curious to see what you all think on your end about a student taking a test on their own iPhone, in a gym for two hours.
Lee Coffin:
I don't think it could be an iPhone. When I heard the webinar for deans, they told us it was either on a computer or an iPad, not a phone.
Charlotte Albright:
Lee, does that mean that the computers will be configured in such a way that a student would not be able to search on the internet for answers to questions? I mean, how do they make sure that, that there can't be any cheating?
Lee Coffin:
They have safeguards built in for testing. And there are exams like Duolingo, the language proficiency exam, which has been online for several years and it's effectively secure, as far as I've heard. So the other thing that I thought was intriguing is when you're in a school where there might be maybe there's 200 juniors and there's only 50 computers, it's said that up in the way that there can be waves. So you can have wave one. So the first 50, take it and then wave two, two hours later will have a test where the questions are scrambled.
So it's not the same exam, 1, 2, 3, 4 times in a row. So it would be hard or impossible for the first wave to say to the third wave, it's a reading passage about "Othello" so be prepared. But it's an experiment. I mean, I put a lot, I'm more optimistic than Kate, I guess. I thought, "oh, this feels like the organic evolution of this exam in the contemporary world, where everything we do is digital these days". But Matt, you're shaking your head and nodding at the same time.
Matt Hyde:
Oh, you're looking or actually you're talking to an admissions guy who walked out of the S.A.Ts twice in the 1900's at a time when he could still do that. I've never been a huge believer in proponent of standardized testing. It certainly is a place in the work that we do, and it can be valuable in certain situations.
But the reality is I think in, in this pandemic space with so many test-optional institutions, we're realizing that it's not always necessary to make a sound thoughtful admissions decision. But, I think I agree with you, Lee, that this is a natural evolution. I think it ignited a little more powerfully with the pandemic underfoot. I think the College Board needed to evolve. And this is I think this an important evolutionary step, but I do share some of Kate's trepidation on this. I'm reading The Invisible Child right now, which is just eye-opening into the world of young people who just have nothing in terms of support and access to resources. More and more of those students are reaching for college opportunity, and this is going to fit into their reality when they don't even have a home.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah.
Charlotte Albright:
And that's another question I have too. Students prepare for this by taking practice tests, do they not, and is that how they practice on the computer, and do they need computers at home to do that?
Kate Ramsdell:
That's an interesting question, Charlotte. I mean more of my kids practice on the computer now, because there are so many online resources, so I'll be a little more positive. I mean, I think Lee's right, that these are digital natives we're talking about. And I bet they're comfort level with an online test is high, but I also think two hours is a little bit easier for kids to do.
I think the College Board had a good opportunity to work out some of their challenges through the AP cycle last year. And there were challenges. And I can say that even in a place where we do have stable internet and other things and what does that do for kids when they can't finish an S.A.T? They lose internet connection, their device isn't charged. I don't know. You know, I don't know. I just think it's more, it's one more layer of things to manage, and it doesn't mean it's unmanageable and we'll adapt. Maybe that's part of the reason it's two hours instead of three and a half. Right.
Charlotte Albright:
But as you say too, it's not the first time they will have done this. I remember as an education reporter, 10 years ago, I went to a little tiny school in Vermont where all of their statewide, standardized tests that were required by the "No Child Left Behind Act" were starting to be administered on computers in 3rd and 8th and 11th grade. So it's not like this will be new, I guess.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. And the access piece was the most consistent topic that the admission deans raised. When I got my preview, I asked the question Kate's asking. And the College Board staff said, "Yes, this is an essential, non-negotiable part of what we do."
I think the rollout is far enough out that I think there's going to be a lot more work to be done. I know one of the things the College Board president said was we're announcing this early, so that the conversation can begin about how we do it. So I think that's good. I think it's as opposed to saying, "Hey, everyone, we're here. The digital is here and it's offered in March". I think giving us a long runway to be able to poke at it, comment on it, troubleshoot it.
Kate Ramsdell:
And my last question… can I ask one more question?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, of course.
Kate Ramsdell:
Is this one more step towards S.A.T anytime, like GRE, right? Sign up when you're ready, take it when you're ready, doesn't need to be at a test site. I'll be curious to see if that's what ..
Lee Coffin:
It could be. But I think that the intersection of the test-optional wave that washed through college admissions two years ago, and the College Board and A.C.T. it would be interesting to see what happens on the other testing agency. They did need to rethink, how do we offer this? What does it mean? Where is it useful? Where is it not useful? Matt, you made a comment about the S.A.T. and suggested they're gone. And I think some places will reinstate the test a year from now. I don't know that all colleges are going to be permanently test optional after the pandemic.
Matt Hyde:
Yeah. Well, I think those that have the market position to offer it and maintain sort of the strength and depth of their applicant pool can go back into that space. It would be interesting to watch where that line falls. I think there are those that want to continue to have record applicant pools and adding testing back into the mix is going to be a factor.
Lee Coffin:
You're right. I mean, the optional testing has swelled a lot of pools. We'll have to ween ourselves off of that. Charlotte, what's next in the headline queue? We have a quiz? We're still quizzing?
Charlotte Albright:
No, not going to quiz you anymore, but that is an interesting segue, when I heard you say swelled a lot of pools. And I know the colleges right now are putting out a lot of press releases about the swelling of their pools. They're bragging about it. And some journalists will take the bait and some won't. But my question is, is this a good thing or a bad thing for schools to be sending out, press releases about how many people are applying to them? Lee?
Lee Coffin:
The data is the lifeblood of "The Admissions Beat". And I say that with a sigh, because I often, I started this podcast to give another perspective on this process, besides just volume selectivity, S.A.T. Scores, how many people said yes. What I think is tricky is how do you put the toothpaste back in the tube? We've been releasing these announcements for decades and there is this expectations on a lot of campuses that, oh, it's this date on the calendar. There's going to be a number from the admission office that marks our journey from applying, to who got in, to who said yes, to who else we enrolled and the got early decision. And the whole thing starts all over again. So that's sort of the reinforcing feedback loop we're in. Where I think it's hard to break the pattern. I'd be curious to see what Kate in particular, from a school, like when these announcements land, what happens.
Charlotte Albright:
Yeah. Kate does that make kids freak out and worry that they shouldn't even bother because they're going to be in such a big pool that they're, it's a crapshoot? They can't possibly succeed?
Kate Ramsdell:
Well, the timing of the announcement after they've applied, right? So they're, then it's sort of the anxiety spikes because, "oh, no, I thought that might be a possible for me now. It looks like it could be a reach. What if I don't get in?" I think for me, I like the data. I think it's helpful. I think it typically informs the next cycle more than the current cycle, though. You're going to lean on it when kids don't get in, we'll often say here's what I think is going to happen. But if there's a major change in their app pool, i.e. Colgate this year. That could really change the likelihood of your admissibility.
Lee Coffin:
What happened to Colgate?
Kate Ramsdell:
They just reported that they got over 21,000 applications up 146%, I think in two years. Doubling their applicants. That's wild, right?
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. That's the number 146%. Yes. That's beyond an exclamation point.
Kate Ramsdell:
But it's unsustainable. I would think, I mean, I'm trying to think of what it feels like to be the Dean there on the one hand. Sure. You're celebrating. And on the other hand, I don't know. You're worried maybe you don't have enough staff to read well. I have no idea. I don't doubt they're going to do a good job, but it certainly put you in a funny position.
Lee Coffin:
Well, what fuels that kind of group? I mean, that's remarkable.
Kate Ramsdell:
I mean, I have a small sample size, but I think there's a lot of anxiety and I've talked to a bunch of kids through this cycle where they maybe didn't get the news that they were hoping in early decision. And you think you have a great plan in place. And all of a sudden on December 18th, they're like, "maybe I'm not going to get into any place on my list. And maybe now I need to add a bunch of schools and in an adolescent brain frame who doesn't have a supplement, who's free, where can I look that this isn't going to be a lot of extra work who doesn't care about demonstrated interest?"
I mean, honestly, that's a recipe for tossing in an application and it doesn't always mean that it's thoughtful. And that's the part for me that's hard. And with all due respect to Stanford, it doesn't matter if they publish their numbers. We know how hard it is to get in there, but I do worry that for some other institutions where careful counseling and good thought about fit and all of those other things really matter. I think these rising pool numbers are really hard and especially in non-binding rounds of early action.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Well, you mentioned Stanford and that's the ying to the yang of this announcement story where the dean at Stanford for the last several years has stopped sharing data. Like he has proactively decided I'm not going to feed the beast. The data is out there. Kate's correct. Like it's not a big mystery, but they are not releasing press releases as they move through the cycle.
And I've heard Dean Shaw say, the numbers will be on the institutional website after matriculation, you can access them. And others have tried to follow. He's invited his peer groups in and they'll do it with us. And it's been challenging. I've released less data than I have historically released as we go year by year, but people ask for it. And when I don't release it, it raises an eyebrow of suspicion like, well, what are you hiding? Why aren't you telling us what happened? And you know, this happened last year where the pool was up over 30% and I hadn't released it. And I was getting questions about, oh, it's the pandemic, he's hiding the number. And I said, actually, we're sitting on an enormous increase. I just chose not to share that just yet.
Matt Hyde:
Let's think about, the list of schools that students from the high-powered independent high schools, like Kate's, apply to. The 40 most likely schools of those students, in the 1990s, those 40 schools were getting maybe 300,000 applications. They're now getting over a million. So again, there's nothing new about the growth of these pools. And here I am sitting at top of record pool at Lafayette and having sort of shared a release yet I'm in no big hurry to pop it out there.
Because the fact of the matter is I'll never append the success of my team on one number. It's a number that people pay attention to. And if we are mum about it, it does, to your point, Lee, it causes questions because everyone else is releasing. And then we hear from our administrative leadership, we are of members board like, Hey, what about us? So we, we need to play that game. And, and it's all a part of that prestige game that is an unfortunate wart on the work that we do. We keep fanning the flame of this, because we all know in the end that prestige not is not equal quality, but we still have to play that game. And that's what these numbers are about.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. There's a volume proposition in college admission that is wicked. It's like, there's no ceiling. It just, how do you get more and more and more, more to be able, to Matt's point, frame yourself as even more selective than you've ever been. I've said this many times over my years of being a dean, okay, this is as high as it can go. And then somehow we go higher and I find less purpose in the volume than I used to. There are increases that seem healthy because you're expanding into pools and parts of the world that are new in your opening access. And then there's just silly volume where you've got a queue of people and a demand that can never be honored.
And I ask why, and maybe, I'm just getting older and I'm seeing things with a different perspective as I shake my head at the pompom shaking that I think colleges started it, the media perpetuates it. I think parents eat it up, as do alums. And then the whole thing repeats. And it's just, it's a cycle that's really hard to snap, Charlotte. And that's why I think you're seeing these press releases. And you'll see them again. I don't even need a crystal ball to look ahead to late March. There'll be high profile stories in multiple media outlets, graphing the admission outcomes of the Ivy League. Almost like it's the New Hampshire primary saying, well, here's the best and here's number two and here's number three. And here's the eighth one and its silly.
Charlotte Albright:
Well, let me pivot to a very, very different kind of story that's been making news. And this is about the so-called 568 lawsuit, which was filed in federal court, accusing 16 of the nation's leading private universities and colleges of conspiring to reduce the financial aid they award to admitted students through some sort of price fixing…"cartel" is the word that the litigants are using against these schools. And Dartmouth is on that list of schools being accused of this. So we are not going to comment specifically on that pending litigation, as none of the others would, either, Lee, but it would be useful for you to help us understand what 568 is. What is that group? And then I'm going to ask Matt and Kate, who are not in that list of schools to take, take over the microphone from there.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, 568 refers to part of the tax code that allows colleges that are need-blind in their admission practices to have conversations about the federal guidelines for need assessment. So the free application for federal student aid set by the Department of Ed with Congress also determining different guidelines. The financial aid directors at this set of colleges can have conversations among and between themselves about interpreting these guidelines, not to set at tuition prices, not to even standardize a financial aid award, but to say, here's a question about family assets, what do we think? It means it's almost like an accounting function. What's this spirit of this question, then how do we in understanding a question, how do we simplify its application for families who are applying? So that's what 568 is. And it's a small membership because of the need-blind criteria.
Charlotte Albright:
Let me ask this though, because I'm pretty naive about this stuff, but it seems to me that when I was applying to colleges and when my kids were applying to colleges, it wasn't standardized. I mean, you got into several different schools and you got several different financial aid packages. They weren't all the same. That's why you had choices that you had to make, maybe based on that very thing. So it seems counterintuitive to me to think that all of these private universities are replicating their packages, because that's not the way it looked when I was applying. Kate, am I right about that?
Kate Ramsdell:
No, you're right. And I would say the sort of irony and all of this is the group that are being identified are really quite generous in their financial aid and are being massively supportive of kids to have access to these highly selective schools. And that's not something that everyone can do or does do. Right? So I think that's interesting. And maybe Matt wants to comment on that before I make my controversial statement.
Matt Hyde:
The group doesn't exist to standardize packages. In my mind, it's like a study group. It's a working group. I mean, resources are finite, but they are less finite at these institutions. So they have an opportunity to figure out how they can be more supportive of students and families, not less supportive. And I think you can still juxtapose path packages from one of them to the next, that's not going to be the same package. You know, these financial aid professionals have professional judgment they can apply. But, family situations and circumstances are complex. And I think this creates, I think, good information can be shared amongst smart people. And I think in the end that benefits everybody. I'm not surprised by sort of the litigation under foot. I think it's unfortunate, but it's real. And I think from the outside, the uninformed outside's perspective, it can look suspicious. So I'm curious to hear Kate's other comments.
Kate Ramsdell:
It's not like this is revelatory. I can't remember if it was the Chronicle or Inside Higher Ed, but there was like one or two sentences that basically said, we're upset that people can buy their way into college and that's like the pejorative term for it here. And it's like on the heels of Varsity Blues; how do assets on the other end of the spectrum perhaps advantage certain students? And you know, I think, I don't know. I think that's what this is all about. I don't think it's about people giving good financial aid to deserving. Right?
Charlotte Albright:
I mean, when you say "we" are upset, you mean the people bringing this lawsuit?
Kate Ramsdell:
Yes.
Charlotte Albright:
So they are in the background saying that these schools are somehow tipping the balance in favor of, say, legacy students or students whose parents went there or some other kind of subset, and this is a way to get at them. Is that what you're saying?
Kate Ramsdell:
Yeah. Okay. That's what I'm saying.
Charlotte Albright:
All right. I guess we'll leave it there, Lee.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. I'm uncharacteristically on mute on this one just for reasons that any lawyer listening will appreciate why I'm not at liberty to talk. I've said on the pod many times, that I was the first generation in my family to graduate from college. I was a financial aid recipient. That for me was the non-negotiable part of a search because I needed a scholarship to go to college. And what I learned then, and what I've seen over the 30 years I've done admission is those scholarships in this private space are endowed by donors who often are alumni of the school. So there's this tug between the access we're allowed to expand because you know where I work now, I have, I have the resource to be able to meet full need, to have an average scholarship for the entering class year of $63,000 a year.
Matt Hyde:
So, you know, I'm, I'm very fortunate to have also a beautifully resourced institution, underfoot. We have a near billion-dollar or just over a billion-dollar endowment, but even at a beautifully resourced institution like Lafayette, our resources are very finite. I take great and pride in the fact that we meet a hundred percent of demonstrated need, but our pool has significant need. It's growing at the high end academically and with students who don't have the opportunity or the ability to afford, a cost of attendance, that's approaching $80,000 a year. So even these families that have significant resources are qualifying for need-based aid. And our pool is very deep when it comes to those who are compelling and powerful and have need.
Lee Coffin:
Matt, Kate, Charlotte has just tossed a bunch of headlines at us. I feel like we're in that seasonal moment where "The Admission Beat" is a blizzard. And every time I pick up a newspaper, click on a website, it's like, here's a, oh my God, another story. And that all sets up the beginning of a college search. So part two will be next week when Matt and Kate will return for our junior kickoff practical advice to the high school class of 2023 as that search begins. But for now, the newsroom will stand on its own as its own little episode this week. But when we come back, I have my next installment of in 500 words or less my essays on "The College Admissions Beat". So we'll be right back.
(Music)
I'm back for another installment of "In 500 words or Less," my essay writing as a form of guidance. So today's essay is called "Reading Season."
College admissions has its own set of seasons. There are three of them and their equinoxes are the deadlines. April to August is like Canada's Northwest territory. It's loosely organized, doesn't have a name really, but it's there. Personally, I think of it as discovery season, as prospective applicants, juniors who morph into rising seniors as if they were bread, research, organize, explore, assess what feels right, what clicks. And then the Common App goes live on August 1st and discovery fades as the typing commences and then travel season launches in the back-to-school moment of late August. And it ends with the first application deadline in November. In other words, it basically parallels Autumn. Then comes reading season, the season among admission seasons.
The first among equals. Reading season stretches from November till the end of March, when decisions are released. As an admissions officer, reading always feels incredibly purposeful. It feels like a task that matters. It's arguably the most essential element of college admissions. We read, we assess, we choose. It's a process with consequences. To do it well is to do admissions well. It's really that simple. My task as a reader is to identify the key elements in a shorthand system that could then be used to revivify the file for committee members who had not read the file themselves. Folder reading is as endless as it is fascinating. And when you find a certain file, it's really rewarding. Each one is a novella; someone's story lurks within its elements, waiting to be released. And as a reader, I am introduced to a high school senior who tells her story through each section of the application. Some manage the storytelling opportunity more elegantly than others.
Others hope their numbers will speak for themselves. But as a reader, my task is the same: read what's in the file. Make an informed assessment about the student's ability to thrive and the curriculum offered at the college where I work and to contribute to the community we are framing. And then from college to college, of course, selectivity adds a third element to consider, as we read.
Is the student competitive? That part of reading requires judgment and embraces nuance. There's a rubric to follow but those guidelines must be interpreted, applied with a degree of context from file to file. Reading season is a very busy season. It's intense. Sometimes it feels endless. It's the work of the work. It's like 12 weeks of final exams for a student. For a teacher, it'd be like 12 weeks of grading papers. It's a marathon. It requires an analytical expertise. The ability to read and digest lots of information quickly. It requires sound professional judgment. The insight to read between the lines when necessary. Empathy and the willingness to meet a high school senior on her own terms. And like a marathon, it requires endurance discipline. Reading is the best part of my job as an admission officer.
(Music)
This has been a really exciting two-part pod for our juniors and their parents to start to imagine how to get started, how to understand the headlines that are popping up on all of our news and make some sense and not be distracted by what we read and what we hear. And more importantly, how to get started, how to start this college search and move intentionally forward.
So we'll be back next week with another episode of "The Admissions Beat". For those of you listening from "The Search" platform, come join us, subscribe to "The Admission Beat" wherever you find your podcasts. And for those of you on "The Admissions Beat" who are intrigued by this idea of "The Search," go subscribe. There are 24 episodes. Plus a couple of bonuses will take you from the beginning to the end of a search in logical progression. To my guests, Matt and Kate, always fun to be with you. And for those of you have questions, send them to me at admissionsbeat@dartmouth.edu, and we will answer them in an upcoming episode. So for now this is Lee Coffin from Dartmouth College. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next week.