With a nod to Dolly Parton's iconic song, two parents ponder their second run through the college admissions process. Is the second time a charm? Are there lessons gleaned from the first search? Can an admissions veteran stay calm as she switches into mom-mode?
With a nod to Dolly Parton's iconic song, two parents ponder their second run through the college admissions process. Is the second time a charm? Are there lessons gleaned from the first search? Can an admissions veteran stay calm as she switches into mom-mode?
Lee Coffin:
From Hanover, New Hampshire, I'm Lee Coffin, Dartmouth's vice president and dean of admissions and financial aid, and this is Admissions Beat.
This episode is called Here We Go Again. As we think about the second college search in a family, and there's a lot of energy that swirls around the first one, whenever I do a program for juniors and their parents, most of the parents are first-time parents. I usually ask and they raise their hand, and the jitters swirl around that newness. And then I say, "Anybody's doing this second time, third time, fourth time?" And weary hands kind of wave back at me like, "Yeah, we're good."
So I thought, let's bring a couple of veteran parents on the pod to have a conversation with their peers about what happens for round two. It's not just carbon copy of round one. It's a different child. It's perhaps a different search. But you're a different parent. You've done it and you've got some wisdom from having been around the block once or twice or three times, or in my mom and dad's case, five times. When we come back, we will meet two parents, one from the East Coast, one from the West Coast, and we'll ponder whether the second time is a charm. We'll be right back.
(music)
So I'm joined this week by a returning guest and a brand new guest. Our brand new guest is Jaime Robitaille, a mom from suburban Boston. Hi, Jaime.
Jaime Robitaille:
Hi, Lee. Thanks for having me on.
Lee Coffin:
Oh, it's so nice to have you. And you were one of the inspirations of the episode. I saw a post on Facebook from you on August 29th where you had just dropped your second child off at college, and you said, "It does not get easier the second time." And I think you were referring to saying goodbye and leaving him in his dorm. But it made me think, well, the whole search maybe didn't get easier the second time. So thanks for coming on to talk about your two trips around this sun.
Jaime Robitaille:
Absolutely. Happy to.
Lee Coffin:
And for listeners, Jaime has a second identity that's going to be germane to the topic. Jaime happens to be the dean of admissions at Babson College in Massachusetts. So you're going to pull from momland and you're going to pull from deanland.
Jaime Robitaille:
Both hats. We'll bring in both.
Lee Coffin:
Both hats. There you go. And returning to the pod is the chatty dad from LA, Sean Elliot. Hi, Sean.
Sean Elliott:
Hi, Lee. Thanks for having me back.
Lee Coffin:
For listeners, I called him the chatty dad because I made a comment in the previous episode that he seemed like a chatty kind of guy. And he texted me, he said, "My friends are dying that you sniffed that out so quickly." But that's the perfect pod guest.
Sean Elliott:
But it's accurate, right? The truth is the absolute defense.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. No, that's right. So Sean, you've got two children as well, so two daughters.
Sean Elliott:
Correct. Yeah. I have Paige, who's beginning her second year at Cornell, and Quinn is a junior in high school, is a large public high school in Los Angeles.
Lee Coffin:
So suburban public high school in LA, one in college, and one at the beginning of the process as an 11th grader. Jaime, how about you? You have two kids.
Jaime Robitaille:
Two kids. So my oldest is 22, just graduated, Olivia, just graduated this past May from Providence College. She is employed, which is lovely and wonderful right now. She's working at Boston Scientific in a financial leadership development program. She went to a large public school west of Boston, I would say, graduated with about 800 students.
Lee Coffin:
Oh, that is huge.
Jaime Robitaille:
It is. My son who just started college, Sacred Heart University in Fairfield, Connecticut, went to a smaller Catholic boys high school outside of Worcester.
Lee Coffin:
Just listening, both of your kids ended up at Catholic colleges.
Jaime Robitaille:
They did.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah.
Jaime Robitaille:
They did.
Lee Coffin:
Intentionally or serendipity?
Jaime Robitaille:
Geez, I guess I hadn't really thought about that until you just said it. I think with number two, it was probably a little bit more intentional. I'll tell you a little bit about his story really quickly. He also went through the same public process as my daughter in our large town west of Boston. During COVID, I think we all realized that being in that large environment wasn't really the best fit. So we transferred him to his smaller Catholic school.
And yeah, I think he really developed a fondness for, I guess, the brotherhood, as they would say, and really a fondness for being in an environment I think that allowed him to continue with his love of spirituality and religion. And I think it's a place that provides him a lot of comfort. So while he didn't look exclusively at Catholic schools, I do think that was a big driver in his decision. With my daughter, she certainly looked at some Catholic, some non-Catholic schools, and I would say it was a piece of her process, but maybe not as much so.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, not the focus. Okay, that's helpful. Okay. So we're going to talk about, here we go again. I was walking my dog a couple of weeks ago thinking about this, and I kind of rewrote the opening stanza to Dolly's Here You Come Again song. So I'm going to share it with you, and I'm sure I will get giggles from one or both of you as I do it. But here we go again, just a weary parent on another visit. Where's the rental car? Is the next stop really far? It's time to wrap my brain around another application. Here we go again So anyway, hi Dolly.
Jaime Robitaille:
That was perfect.
Lee Coffin:
So as you heard me just do that little jingle, just a weary parent on another visit. Where's the rental car? Is the next stop really far? It's time to wrap my head around another application. Jaime, is that what you though as you did it the second time?
Jaime Robitaille:
I think I went into the second process with this, I said to myself, I'm going to have more of an open mind than I've ever had before. This is going to be so much less stressful and we're going to start so much earlier and I have things all figured out. Surely I should, being the dean of admission where I am and having gone through this process already.
And then all of those things, Lee, started. All of a sudden I'm sort of sitting there saying to my child, "Have you registered for these events? Have you gone on Scoir? Have you been looking at this school or looking at that school or doing your research?" And I think thinking about the things that actually have to occur throughout the process where you have to check them off, visit the school, send an email, attend something that's happening, all of a sudden I think that sort of came back, and yeah, it was a little bit daunting.
My husband was a lot more involved with number two than number one, really for no other reason I think other than schedules and things of that nature, taking him, I think, to more of the visits and such. And the ones that I had already gone to, I didn't feel like I needed to necessarily go back. It didn't really feel all that daunting until I think the summer leading into senior year came.
And that sort of is the time where we as professionals are always saying to students, "You have so much time to go through this process. Time is on your side." And suddenly time really wasn't on our side anymore. And I almost felt like a hypocrite sort of saying one thing to one audience, and I have on these two hats, my dean hat and my mom hat. And I'm so calm at work and in that setting and at home, I'm there with my planner and trying to check off all these things. And I was two different people at one time.
Lee Coffin:
Was Charlie materially different as a prospective applicant than Olivia had been?
Jaime Robitaille:
I would say that my children presented very differently in the process. Both came with, obviously like all students do, with a lot of different strengths and great attributes and great people, but they're very different people. And I think, and Sean, I bet you'll agree with this as well, you sort of think back to how your children were when they were two, five, and 10. And they're still those same people, and you look at them at this time and say, okay, they're bringing different things to the table. They're bringing their different personalities to this process. And one sort of has their life laid out and it's planned and in front of her and she knows what's going to happen when it's going to happen and she's ready for it. And the other who needs a little bit more guidance, and also I think needs the time to just think about what it is that he wants. And again, time isn't always on your side in this process.
Lee Coffin:
Well, especially now, September slips into November in a blink.
Jaime Robitaille:
Of course.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. All right. So Sean, you've got a gap in between child one and two. So you've got one in college, one still working her way towards it. But as you listen to Jaime, what's going through your mind as you ponder your second search?
Sean Elliott:
Your children are wildly different from each other. They're their own individuals, and they're going to go through the process. And your approach to the process and understanding of it may be better, but it's still going to be a different process because you have a different person going through it.
Ours was kind of flipped on the head a little bit because, and different people will have different experiences, but it's funny because Paige actually was kind of going through, do I need to go to college at all? Could I just circumvent that, get my real estate license, just go? Could I go into the military? She was open to all of these other things.
She at the time in high school had a less social than, she'd have two or three really close friends, than Quinn... College has been great for her in that one of just really expanding and finding her people. She's much, much more social now. But I think it made that process a lot more just kind of narrow.
And then Quinn is much more gregarious, social. She's the class president. And she is in all of the clubs and just everywhere. And she's got her target on where she wants to go. And so they're just wildly different. And it's, Jaime, exactly what you're saying, is if you think back, it's like they are actually who they are at that kernel of who they were at five and six and 10 and 15 as well.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Well, and Sean, you just described Quinn in a go-getter kind of way, like a gregarious class president, kind of out in her own. And then Jaime, your second one seemed like maybe a little more of a procrastinator maybe, or maybe a little less organized. And I think that often happens where, in Jaime's search, you had the first kid go through with a lot of focus and precision, and Sean, you've got the second one doing that.
Sean Elliott:
That's right. That's right. That's exactly right. Yeah.
Lee Coffin:
I think taking a step and saying, okay, which person is this that I'm now guiding because they will react differently. And I think siblings are so interesting because they're in the same house, they have the same parents, and yet I look at my own siblings and we're all so different. And then that comes through the way a search plays through.
Jaime Robitaille:
And Lee, I think something that I learned when you sort of mentioned that piece is going through it the second time, I think I had to really sit back and take a moment and say, you know what? Somebody does go through this process in a different way, and I have this child who is a little bit more of a procrastinator. And as much as I want to say, "Okay, Monday night we're going to work on this together. Tuesday night, this will happen. Every Saturday we'll be visiting a school." What I probably didn't do well enough is allow him to tell me when he was ready to do some of these things. And I do think that that would have alleviated some stress and some anxiety.
It's really easy to go through the first search and say, okay, I've already visited those, whatever it is. Maybe it was 10 schools, maybe it was 20 schools with my first child. We don't even have to go back there for number two. Well, that's not really giving child number two the opportunity. You're not giving them the grace to say, "Let me determine if this might be something that could be a potential good fit or not."
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, I think that's a really important point. Because I see a lot of younger siblings tagging along on the college visit. And sometimes they're really young and sometimes they're just a couple of years out, but they're there and they're listening, or at least looking around. But are they listening with the same intentionality? Can they? Because if they're 10th graders or ninth graders, they're just in a different space. But yeah, giving them permission to see the same place with their own eyes. Did either of you have child two on the visits with child one?
Jaime Robitaille:
For me, no.
Lee Coffin:
No.
Jaime Robitaille:
That would not... And they're far enough apart, so they're that four-year gap where Charlie would've been in seventh and eighth grade at the time. So no, he wouldn't have been ready to do that yet.
Sean Elliott:
And no for me as well.
Lee Coffin:
Okay. So what are the lessons? As a parent, how did you each come out of that first search and dust yourself off and say, okay, what did I learn that I can now apply to my second child's process?
Sean Elliott:
I think one thing that I learned for sure is wherever they end up is going to be their place and it is going to be okay. And so with Paige's quest, there were, at different times, three different schools that seemed like that was 100% going to be the place that was my thing. And they varied over the time as much as one time it was NYU and another time it was CU Boulder. Those are just wildly different experiences. And it just depended on when she saw it, what the timeframe was, what she was thinking. And I think that had she gone to either of those places, or Cornell, you still find your place, you still find your people, you still find your experience. So whatever your fit ends up being is going to be your experience, and it all ends up being the way that it's going to be.
And also the other thing too, it does not have to be a four year, what am I doing for these four years? If you go somewhere, you can transfer. There's other options of things. You can take time off. And so it doesn't have to be this thing. I think that's very overwhelming for kids at 18 to be like, oh my God, that's a huge chunk of my life. And then inevitably you get there and you find your people and you find your home, and it's hard to imagine yourself anywhere else.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Well, and what I love about Paige's story is I remember you telling us on the previous pod how it evolved, and her reaction to a campus, her reaction to what she wanted kept shifting as she went forward. And just lining up Colorado, Boulder, NYU, and Cornell. I mean, there's something they all have in common-ish. They're all a little larger than small. But NYU and Boulder are-
Sean Elliott:
Yeah, they definitely seem-
Lee Coffin:
... pretty different places, but you love them both.
Sean Elliott:
Yeah. And then that became the common thing that we realized because it felt like things were very all over. She toured Babson too, which is a lot smaller. But then that common thing where the schools felt different, in retrospect, you look and it's like, oh, she really responded to larger places. That was the one that kind of came back. And there's some places that felt a little too intimate. And I think she's somebody who likes to be able to know that she can disappear a little bit and find different friend groups.
Lee Coffin:
And Jaime, did Olivia have a similar journey, or was she very focused on, I'm going to medium-sized places in a city, or did she cast a big net?
Jaime Robitaille:
Yeah, I think her search was…we visited a lot. I think as we were going through some of them, one of the pieces that I had to step back and say to myself a lot was, okay, I have an opinion right away because I'm looking at everything. I'm looking at what the exterior of the buildings look like and are the facilities people around right now? How good does the campus look? And what are they giving us for information here? What are the outcomes? All of these things, they're immediately coming to my mind.
And it took me a little bit to say, I need to allow this to happen. I need to get rid of that other hat that I have right now, and just allow this visit experience to be exactly what it's supposed to be and to allow her to have that opportunity to experience it on her own.
But I think one of the things, you had asked something to Sean about what did you learn? And I sort of remember thinking, okay, this is my child's pick. And people always ask that question, whose pick is it? Is it the child's pick or is it the parent's pick? Who's paying? Who has the commitment? What exactly is happening?
And yeah, there absolutely is the piece about what's the affordability? How are we making this happen as a family? But you also want your child to be happy. And you never want to push them into a place that you sort of know from the depths of who you are that that's not where they belong. And so I sort of had to say to myself, okay, maybe what the smartest move to do here with this child isn't necessarily what's going to happen from a financial standpoint. And that was okay. It was okay to pivot and to take that next course of action.
Lee Coffin:
Parents, whether it's your first child or your sixth, learning how to pivot as this search progresses, and I think especially in this part of the senior fall, when the lists are shifting and places are rising, falling, stalling, those are pivots. Paige's example of, as she learned, things kept pivoting and twisting is organic.
I mean, some people start and finish in the same place. That's rare. I often say to juniors, write down on the piece of paper the place you think you will go, lick it in an envelope, and put it somewhere to be opened on May 1st of your senior year. And I bet you many of you don't go to the place on that piece of paper for lots of reasons. But some do. I mean, some know right out of the door, this is where I see myself, this is where I want to be, and that search is very focused. But it doesn't mean every child in your family has that same degree of clarity.
Jaime Robitaille:
When you think about all the other aspects of their life too, they don't have that same kind of clarity when it comes to what they're doing with their activities and sports and the arts and leadership. And so it sort of makes sense that that's going to happen.
Lee Coffin:
So Sean, as you're prepping for Quinn's still early search, what are you doing? Compare Sean as dad in the fall of junior year now versus Sean as dad in the junior year a few years ago.
Sean Elliott:
I'm trying to sit back as much as possible and let her... I mean, because she is the driver anyway, just naturally, I'm just trying to let her drive and just be in the passenger seat a little bit and steer. And it is early days, right? It's interesting because they're so different. And also the environment's changed too. It's like when Paige was applying, a lot was actually test optional for the whole time that she was in high school, and then all of a sudden, I think that was the year that Dartmouth was like, "Hey, guess what?" And that was the bellwether. You're just like, okay, it's all coming back.
So she had to race. She hadn't taken an ACT until the summer before her senior year. Whereas Quinn the other day, I was like, "Where were you?" She's like, "Oh, I was just taking a practice test." It's just a much more awareness of the process. But at the same time, I also want to be there to be able to give some guidance. And so she's not just... I can trust her to do her thing and find her interest on her own, but at time it's like I want to also be there so she doesn't feel like she's in it alone and it just becomes overwhelming. It becomes where am I supposed to narrow things and focus a little bit?
Lee Coffin:
What are you telling her?
Sean Elliott:
One is I check in with her all the time, I'm like, "Okay," she's like, "Oh my God." They're kind of stressed in looking for where they want to go and feeling the pressure of things. And I'm just like, "Okay, you're in a really, really great spot right now. You have been taking all... Your rigor is there, you have all A's. I mean, you haven't done your ACT yet, but you just told me your practice test was a 34. I might have to do a paternity test and see whose father… And it's like you're doing all the things right.”
And in a way for her she almost has to do less right now and just relax into it. And I think also knowing, I think I said on the last one, it's just using the Fiske Guide as the guide of schools, and not just the US News Top 30. That Fiske Guide, it's a big thick book of amazing schools of 300 places that are viable options because that was a real secret sauce with Paige. Once she said, "I would be happy at Boulder," well, now you've won the lottery because you're like, you're going to get into school there. That's a high admit school. That's going to happen. And so it just takes a lot of the pressure off of I have to go do these things.
But I do think there's also becomes the pressure specific to Paige and Quinn is your sister now is at Cornell. And so you actually now know this impossible thing is possible and see that. And so it's really trying to be able to calm things. And it's a hard process because so many things of what we do in life, it's like, okay, if you run really fast, you win the race. When you can go through the things, your performance is performance-based.
This is a different thing. You can do every single thing totally right and have it right there, and you're trying to have a... It's a two-way fit. And so you might not be the exact fit for what that place is looking for at that time, at that moment. And that doesn't mean you didn't, quote, unquote, "win," or you didn't accomplish it. You got yourself in the place that it's a possibility, and now you're just looking, it's a two-way street to find what that fit is. And so much of that part of it is just out of your control.
Lee Coffin:
Sean just popped two really juicy morsels. One is the story about Boulder, where Paige fell in love with it and he said she won the lottery because it was within her reach. And I think I've heard other guests say, start with your foundational options, fall in love with the places where admission is pretty straightforward. Because then as you go forward, you're happy with an option that's already pretty clear. Don't overlook the places that are wonderful but less punishing in their acceptance.
And then two was noting that Quinn watching her sister get into Cornell, and you said she saw that this impossible thing is possible. Because I think that strips away a lot of the nerves. Cornell is very selective, and my sister, who seems like a normal human, got in. Do you see Quinn being reassured by that?
Sean Elliott:
I think it's a two-way street. I think it's reassuring because you see that that's possible, and then it also probably, she doesn't really talk about this, but my guess is it also adds some pressure too.
Jaime Robitaille:
Sean, I was also going to say what I've also heard on the other end is that Quinn, in this case, would sort of say, "Okay, it should be possible for me, but what if things now are different two years later, three years later, four years later?" And then it gives that additional pressure of I know I can do this. I know I'm qualified, and what if it doesn't turn out the way that I want? And then that gives them that feeling of, I don't know, just undue stress that seems unbearable.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, Jaime, that's smart to highlight that too, because that impossible thing is possible is a double-edged sword. It's like, I saw someone do it, but do I now have to do it as well or have I failed? I think that's sometimes the unsaid worry. I think what we're hearing too is that first search is informative in a really important way on this next one. Neither one of you seems like you went into the second round with the same kind of anxiety, parental anxiety about what's going to happen.
Jaime Robitaille:
I certainly don't feel like I went into it with that at all. I don't feel like there was that angst. I don't feel like that parental anxiety was there. I would say as we were maneuvering through it, there were certainly periods of time where whether it was him or myself where I'd say, "Okay, is this going the way that it should? Are we finding the right places? Does it seem like there's the fit?" And again, going back to your point, Lee, about having some really good options and knowing that they're the schools that are plausible for you.
So I think with us in the second search, I felt really good for my son that we were looking at the right schools. And I would say, "Okay, this is really great, and I can see you ending up here." And many of these schools would be ones that I'd have confidence that would be a good match both ways. And then he'd come back and say, "Nah, I don't know. Maybe that really isn't all that good." So then that's, I think, when the anxiety starts to get brought back in.
Lee Coffin:
How have you learned to hold your peace when you have an opinion that is not shared by the applicant who lives in your house?
Sean Elliott:
Mine is really easy because I get an eye roll and a look that tells me if I open my mouth, I am going... It's like a dagger to the heart. So I know just to try to be quiet and sit on my hands. And mostly it's not to be a great dad, it's just because I don't want to be on the other end of whatever's going-
Lee Coffin:
Of the look.
Sean Elliott:
I'm interested to know from Jaime too, it's funny because you're a dean, you have all this inside information, but you're also a parent. I'm like, did they listen to you with your knowledge or are you the mom who it's like, I don't want to hear it?
Jaime Robitaille:
A lot of the time it was the latter. At least we'll talk about child two for a moment. And yeah, oftentimes it was the latter, and it was sort of, "You don't know, let's go look." However, I'd get phone calls. My phone would be ringing all day at work. I'd be getting these texts, and where are you and what's going on? I'd say, "Well, why? What's up? What's happening?" And he's like, "So-and-so's coming over tonight so you can help him with his. And so-and-so's coming over so you can do this." I can't tell you how many friends came over and we'd have these little meetings and we'd talk about colleges and we all brought up the Common app together.
And so while he may not have necessarily made me feel like I was the expert with him, I guess I knew deep down inside that he thought, all right, she's a little bit cool that she does this job.
Sean Elliott:
You got some validation.
Jaime Robitaille:
And I think she knows something. Yeah. Yeah.
Lee Coffin:
His friends though you were cool.
Jaime Robitaille:
I hope so. I hope so.
Lee Coffin:
How did being an admission mom inform your work at Babson? Did your mom journey make you step back as a dean and say, some of the things I thought or some of the advice I was giving was not as informed as it now is?
Jaime Robitaille:
Completely. And I think I noticed it going through the application review process this past year, whether I was reviewing an application or we were sitting in a committee room, or just having a conversation about an applicant, you sort of take a step back, I think, and really re-look at something. Whether it is the student that has a C+ in AP calc or the student that has a mistake on their supplemental essay or whatever it is that maybe you would have stopped for a moment and given pause to. There's empathy.
There's that piece of you, I think, that doesn't always come through all the time, but certainly more so I think when you're an admission mom. Through the visit process also, you learn so much. As mom, when I'm going and visiting schools and seeing what it is that he's encountering and what it is that he wanted to be gaining from that experience, that then informed decisions that I was making and that we were changing in our office about our visit process and how we wanted students to feel once they walked out the door.
You want to be that place where somebody leaves and they get in the car, and they're like, "Okay, I feel good. I feel really good about this visit. I feel good about myself being here. I feel good about what I learned." And there are always tweaks you can make. And so that was a huge plus.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. It was a long time ago, but I went on a couple of visits with my niece who's gone through the college process a while ago. But we were at Tufts where I had been dean, and she went in to the info session and tour with a lot of hope that this was her top choice. And I watched that visit for whatever reason on that particular day, it just went sideways.
And I sat in the seat as the former dean at that place, but also now just as someone rooting for my niece to pick the place. And I watched it just, it was like an ice cube in the sun that just was like... And we got in the car, and she said, "I can't go there." And I was like, "Oh my God." So as a dean, I witnessed the way these visits can go in a wonderful direction, or through no intended plan, fizzle and an option went away. And yeah, as uncle in that search, I was covering my own mouth saying, don't, just listen.
Jaime Robitaille:
You just assume things are going to go exactly as you think they should and as you envision them to. And that doesn't always happen.
Lee Coffin:
No. And these visits play out in these local moments too. It's like you drive all this way and there's a thunderstorm right as you arrive or you get to the admission office and the tour guide is just not your person, and you have to do your best to make a connection to this person that for whatever reason you're not clicking with. Yeah.
Jaime Robitaille:
I think it just makes you realize too, as I put my dean hat on here and say that experience of a tour guide who may not resonate with you, or an admission counselor who seems like they're having an off day, or the food that's in the dining hall, and it's burgers and dogs because it's the middle of summer and there's a lot of summer camps going on. I think I've tried to inform at least as many people as I can and friends that are going through the process and such that things aren't always as they seem. And you may think, okay, the food here's horrible, the people are really mean, and I could never be friends with this person. And that's not true. And in fact, the reason why you are choosing a college sometimes is for some of those reasons and to make sure that you're interacting with individuals who are going to help to make you better and who might not be exactly like you are.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. So we did a recent episode on misinformation in suburban social situations, and you're both suburban parents. So lots of people have opinions, whether in real time on a tour, or you're in the pickup line and you're chatting, or you're at a party at someone's house and the conversation inevitably turns to the work I do.
What voice do you now bring into that conversation? When you hear your fellow parents opining about things you know are not true now, let Sean go first because Jaime, you've got the double whammy of you're a dean. But Sean, you can speak up perhaps and say, "Wait a minute, you're all going down a rabbit hole you don't need to go down."
Sean Elliott:
I have no problem stepping in with parents, and just being like, "You're misreading this. This is not the way this is playing out. I know this seems overwhelming right now, but this is not the case. We want the best, we mean the best, we're well-intentioned." But we get on these parent threads and it's just, I mean, it just all spins out of control. And one person says one thing, and everyone's kind going down this rabbit hole on something that's just patently false or not true.
I think the other thing is if you're all trying to do, you're trying to game the system and do the thing that everyone's doing, all of a sudden everybody starts looking like this version of some version of what you think they're supposed to be on the other end. And it's what we think that Lee or Jaime, or any other admissions person is looking for.
And it's like, no, you're trying to get into the crux of who this student is and what they really want to be doing and who they are. And so a lot of the activities and stuff like that just become almost like window dressing on top of something, or it's almost like an obstacle in the way of actually getting to the core of who the student is. That's why I think that the parents get off track a lot and send kids kind of down a rabbit hole.
Obviously in California right now, the thing is like, oh, the UCs are going to need ACT and SAT scores next year. It's coming in. Because there was one meeting that was pushed or something like that. And so that becomes the big piece of it. Who knows how that's going to play out, but just it's another thing to worry about, I guess, for people.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. And just on that one, our attorney a couple years ago said to me, "Don't worry about something that has not happened. I'll tell you when to pivot." There's that word again. "Until something is fact, don't fret about it." I was like, "Okay." And I think the UC bringing back testing is a good example of it. When it happens, if it happens, most of us have built in a timeline that gives prospective applicants a time to adapt to the new rules. It's rare that someone says, "This is effective today." And then you're like, "Oh my God, I didn't know that. I couldn't prepare for that." But yeah, people get themselves whipped up over a lot of things.
Sean Elliott:
There's enough to worry about the things that actually are real and happening. And I think there's two things that I would correct people on when I hear is, one, the thing of we are applying to somewhere. We are applying to this school. And it's just like, no, we are not. And the thing is, if you play it out, I would never say like, "Oh, we're graduating from Cornell," or, "We go to Cornell." At some point you stop saying that, or you're not going to say, "Oh, we got this job at this law..."
It's like, no, this is not we. This is her or him. This is their journey. You're there to support. You're part of the car. So one, we just needs to be out of the vocabulary. I think it really tears apart kids. It really feels like you're trying to live vicariously through them. I don't think that it's healthy.
The other thing is hearing the term safety school or something. It's like, no, find the school that's your fit out of the Fiske Guide. And if you're like, Alabama's my school, Arizona is my school, or Clemson's my school, let that be your school, and know that that's going to be your fit on. And then also if you're applying to other places that are maybe more highly rejective and those pan out, then great.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Jaime, what are you thinking as you listen to Sean?
Jaime Robitaille:
Sean, I'm thinking of you being in these circles, being at the grocery store or being at a dinner party. And you said you're very much willing to open up and be that loud person to correct people and such. And I will to a degree when it's peers, friends, people that I know. Sometimes I find what happens is I am so utterly frustrated by what I hear that it's really hard to correct that misinformation because I don't think people want to hear it.
An example is where I am outside of Boston, a lot of people are looking at, I think of BC, Boston College. A great school. And one of the things that you hear is, okay, they only take students from these four Catholic schools in the area. They don't take students from here. They'll take six from, I won't say all the schools. But they'll have these remarks that will come out and they sound as though they are fact. They are completely true and they're getting this information from the VP for enrollment. And it's frustrating.
So I try and do a little bit of educating without sounding too authoritative. But it's hard not, I think, to try and correct some of those false statements in the moment. Because I think what ends up happening is it steers people down a path that they shouldn't be going. And I think there are then some that start to not look at some of the options that are out there. I have a little bit of duty to correct in that way. When I'm in a position, I think, and people are asking me questions, knowing what my position is, I try and turn the conversation into a different topic.
Lee Coffin:
I try and hold back myself. I was having my physical this morning, and the doctor said, "So can I ask you a question?" I was like, "Uh-huh." And I though he was going to talk about my blood pressure. He said, "How much do the SATs really count?" I'm like, oh my God. Even though I'm sitting here in my underwear and we're talking-
Jaime Robitaille:
Oh my gosh. And then your blood pressure spikes. Yeah.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. But as veterans of the admission cycle, I think you are versions of this too because you've lived it. You've watched a child go through what is often seen as a high stakes, not very transparent process, come out the other side, and be happy and thrive. I mean, Jaime, you have a child with a job. So I think that brings a certain amount of poise to the second one where like, okay, I know this admission process that gets so much oxygen poured into it, it works. I don't have to worry. Is that a fair way of describing how you each went into the second one? I don't need to be as worried as I was for the first one.
Sean Elliott:
Yeah. It's also even knowing that it's like, look, Paige is loving her time at Cornell. It's interesting to me. I'm having a harder time with her being gone the second year than the first year, which is really interesting. I don't know, that's not everybody's experience. I think a little bit of that is we went through the Palisades fire at the time that she was going to school, so I think it was a little bit kind of like, okay, she gets to be in a safe space and away from that. That might have played into it a little bit.
But I think the other part was where she was so excited to end the summer and go back. It's what you want. If you do your job as a parent, they don't need you anymore. You work yourself out of a job, but it hurts kind of when they do. But my point of bringing that up is it's not like it was all daisies and roses her first year either. There were tough times. There's a lot of imposter syndrome. There's a lot of doubt of wondering if this is my major, if this is the thing I want to do. It is not the easiest thing. There's a lot of struggle as well. And so I think also knowing on the side of, okay, when I say things work out great, doesn't mean that they're always flawless and always perfect. It means there's going to be ups and downs, but they still work out.
Lee Coffin:
And it doesn't mean it's instant. I think one of the perils of a selective college admission process is the romanticism that is unavoidably part of this process creates this expectation of utopia at the end of it, as opposed to no, it's a community with lots of bumpy, messy, interactive dynamics, you being a part of that. And I think you can, again, as admission vets, you see that and you could maybe help steer the second one through that search for utopia.
So let's close with some advice. So Jaime, you've already done it twice, and Godspeed you don't need to do it again, at least as a mom. What advice do you have to first time parents who are listening to this, and they're like, yeah, and they're still fretting. What counsel do you have as someone who's done it twice, and lived to tell?
Jaime Robitaille:
So the first time around, I want to say I was, I don't know where we were in the process, if it was the summer when she was getting ready to apply or when it was, but I was doing a program with a number of other colleges, and a colleague from BU was doing it with me. We were talking to parents, and I remember him telling everyone, "Pick a day, pick one day during the week as you're leading into summer, starting junior year sometime to say, okay, Tuesday nights 8:00 to 9:00, this is sort of our time to have initial conversations. Write down questions that you have for me. I'm going to write down questions that I have for you to make sure you're doing what you're supposed to be doing."
And it sort of gets rid of that frenzy and the frenetic, I think, conversations around, "Oh my gosh, did you do this?" And, "Oh, I saw that so-and-so sent me an email." Because remember, colleges are reaching out to parents at the same time. So I think a lot of parents are out there saying, "Okay, I saw this come through and I saw that come through." And I thought that was really good advice that I did not take the first time around, but I think I was a lot better with it the second time.
And then my next piece of advice I think is going to come from a question that I always get from parents when their child is down to the wire. They're deciding between two, three, or four schools. And they'll say, "Okay, I just really need to know. I need you to tell me which is the better one for..." And they'll throw out different statistics. So who's the better one for this major? Who's the better one for faculty with advanced degrees? And they'll ask these questions.
And I found myself finally looking at these parents, and saying, "Well, how does that matter? And in what conversation that you're then going to have with your child is this going to inform their decision?" And Sean, in your case with Paige, maybe it was Boulder, maybe it was Cornell, maybe one could argue that the better school by numbers and rankings and statistics and admit rate and all of that is one versus the other, but she may have been happy had she have chosen a different school.
And so I think the best piece of advice is what you think is the best school that's out there isn't necessarily the best school for your child. And it really does come down to, yeah, you have to think about, you need to look into affordability and reputation and outcomes, and all those things come into play. They have to. But when you're down to the wire, what's going to make them feel good and feel good about themselves and where will they be successful? And by the way, successful isn't just about how much money they're going to make when they graduate.
Lee Coffin:
Sean, what are you telling yourself as you pick up the baton for round two that your peers could benefit in round one?
Sean Elliott:
One is to really listen and really listen and listen. And like I said before, it's not we, it's your student's journey. It is not our journey. We're here to support and be there and know that it is going to work out. They are going to find their place, and when they get there, that's going to be the only place that they know, and they're going to find their community and it works out.
And I have to remind myself of that too. Because there's times where when Paige is at school, it's like there's parts of the way that Cornell is structured that it almost has a lot of rigidity to it where she feels like she sees everybody going down a certain lane, and she starts to feel like she needs to go down that lane, where it's investment banking or whatever, and they're kind of doing it.
And I have to stop her. She's like, "I feel like I'm behind." And I'm like, "If you were at Dartmouth, you wouldn't be allowed to have a major yet. You're just experiencing what's around you right now." And so it's also telling myself that it ends up okay. And then making sure that I'm listening and making sure that I let Quinn know that it's a gentle balance of you can achieve anything. Anything is possible. You can do it. And then also, if you don't hit that total mark, that's still success because you're still aiming high even if you hit a little bit low.
Final thing, I'll hear a lot of parents where it's like their students have done everything in high school, quote, unquote, "right," all the way through the rigor and everything like that. And they end up not hitting their top school that they were aiming for, and they go to a state flagship school and I'll hear this. It's like, "Well, so-and-so's going and they were a B student and just lived a great life in high school all the way through, and my kid went through all of this stress, and so was it all worth it?"
And I think I've said this, my advice right there is no, because you're going into that experience completely different. You're going to go into your flagship and be the type of person who knows how to use the resources, who knows how to talk to your faculty, who knows how to really be in there. That's going to be a different experience. And so it's not like you have in any way minimized your experience. You've built who you're going to be going into school and beyond.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. I think that's really great advice. And I've said in a lot of settings, high school matters beyond just getting into college.
Sean Elliott:
That's right.
Lee Coffin:
There are lessons in high school that carry you forward and you didn't waste them because the admission process didn't react to some of them in whatever sequence. Well, admission vets, this has been fun. Thanks for coming on Admission Beat to share your experiences as parents who've done it once and about to do it twice. Here we go again. I appreciate your candor and your humor as you tell the story of your families.
Sean Elliott:
Thanks so much for having us, Lee.
Lee Coffin:
You're welcome.
Jaime Robitaille:
Such a pleasure.
Lee Coffin:
Thanks. Listeners, thanks for joining us again. Admissions Beat is produced and edited by Charlotte Albright. Editorial direction from Jacques Steinberg, technical assistance and support from Sara Morin, and scheduling, maybe the hardest job of all, by my assistant Peg Chase. Next week, we will be back with another episode as we continue to point seniors towards the act of applying. For now, this is Lee Coffin from Dartmouth College. Thanks for joining us.