AB host Lee Coffin probes the lessons learned by students and a parent from last year’s admissions process. He is joined by four first-year college students who reflect on their own admissions processes—and the lessons learned. Ashley Kim of Chandler, Arizona, Isabel Carleton of Columbus, Ohio, Romello McRae of Los Angeles, California, and Witold Ambroziak of Warsaw, Poland ponder misconceptions about acceptance rates as barriers, the perils of overthinking and over-applying, and they advise current seniors to view writing college essays as an evolving conversation with themselves. Then, “admissions mom” Ronnie Burnett from Season 5 returns to the pod to share her experience as a parent after her son saw the results of his application, made his enrollment decision, and embarked on his successful launch as a college student this fall. From its reminder for students to “preserve the opportunity to play” during senior year to its contention that “a rejection is just redirection,” these admissions veterans share valuable insights for the current crop of applicants and parents.
AB host Lee Coffin probes the lessons learned by students and a parent from last year’s admissions process. He is joined by four first-year college students who reflect on their own admissions processes—and the lessons learned. Ashley Kim of Chandler, Arizona, Isabel Carleton of Columbus, Ohio, Romello McRae of Los Angeles, California, and Witold Ambroziak of Warsaw, Poland ponder misconceptions about acceptance rates as barriers, the perils of overthinking and over-applying, and they advise current seniors to view writing college essays as an evolving conversation with themselves. Then, “admissions mom” Ronnie Burnett from Season 5 returns to the pod to share her experience as a parent after her son saw the results of his application, made his enrollment decision, and embarked on his successful launch as a college student this fall. From its reminder for students to “preserve the opportunity to play” during senior year to its contention that “a rejection is just redirection,” these admissions veterans share valuable insights for the current crop of applicants and parents.
Lee Coffin:
From Hanover, New Hampshire, I'm Lee Coffin, Dartmouth's vice president for admissions and financial aid. Welcome to Admissions Beat.
Lee Coffin:
So every fall or so, I like to turn the mic over to students and to bring the voices of actual applicants into the podcast so that we cannot think about college admission just from a high level, but get right down into the nuts and bolts from people who just did it.
So today we have a double header. First, four members of Dartmouth's class of 2028 will join me to reflect on their college admissions experience last year that led them all to Hanover ultimately. And then we'll meet a returning guest who was on the pod last season as her son went through his college search.
And she's going to come back and think about the lessons she learned as a parent and some thoughts she gives the parents of the class at 25 as we move from October to the deadlines. So when we come back, we'll have a lively conversation with four first year students as they reflect on the year that was.
(music)
Lee Coffin:
So today we've got four students from four really different parts of the world, all of whom landed at Dartmouth College about a month ago to start their undergraduate experience. And as I always say, this pod is hosted by Dartmouth, but it's not about Dartmouth. So the fact that they've got four current Dartmouth students is the serendipity of this is where I work, this is who I know.
And the four of them will do their best to represent high school seniors worldwide from the class of 2024. So no pressure guys. So I'm going to ask them each to say hello and tell you a little bit about who they are, where they're from, and then we'll go. So first up is Ashley.
Ashley Kim:
Hi, my name is Ashley Kim and I'm from Chandler, Arizona, which is a suburb right next to Phoenix. I went to Basis Chandler. And a fun fact about me is that I'm currently in one of Dartmouth's acapella groups called the Rockapellas.
Lee Coffin:
Just tell me a little bit more about Basis Chandler. So public school-
Ashley Kim:
It's a charter school.
Lee Coffin:
Charter school. How many seniors were in your class?
Ashley Kim:
So in my class, there were 81 seniors including me. So it was a pretty small school. And I would say that my high school was very academically driven. There were so many people who we would consider try-hards in our generation. I think it was a good thing for me to be put in an environment where there were so many so-called try-hards, because that pushed me to also be a try-hard.
Lee Coffin:
I have not heard that phrase before, so I've just learned something.
Isabel Carleton:
Hi, my name is Izzy Carleton. I'm from Columbus, Ohio at Bexley High School. And a fun fact about me is that I am in a play being produced by a student-led contemporary theater company on campus.
Lee Coffin:
What I love about this…so Ashley and Izzy, within the first month of being in college, have an admission for a cappella group and a play. So that's exciting.
Romello McRae:
Hey everybody. My name is Romello, I go by Mello though, just for easier understanding, I suppose. I'm from Los Angeles. I went to a Fairfax High School in the Hollywood area. The fun fact about me is I actually am a part of the Chess Club at Dartmouth and I really love chess. I also love Legos and stuff like that. I have a lot of Lego sets, specifically Star Wars.
Lee Coffin:
Star Wars Lego sets. Okay. And what's it like to grow up in Hollywood?
Romello McRae:
I grew up in Inglewood, which is where the SoFi Stadium is. But going to school in Hollywood, it was pretty fun. You see a celebrity every now and then just randomly at the food spots that we go to after school, and then you'll see them walking past our school. They come to a couple of the games. So it was really fun.
Witold Ambroziak:
Hi everyone. I'm Witold, I come from Warsaw, Poland, and my fun fact is that I actually went to school in Brazil.
Lee Coffin:
And how did that happen?
Witold Ambroziak:
It's a long story. Basically, we went to Brazil in 2020 and we couldn't go back because the flights were closed and locked down. So then my parents had to find a job there and it just stayed like that.
Lee Coffin:
Wow. Wow. That is a really interesting spin on fate. Okay. Well, there we go. We have Poland, LA, Ohio, and Arizona as the home of our four students. And I want to ask you each as we start to look back a year, so a year ago, late October, you were seniors.
If I had said to you that day, write down on a piece of paper and put it in an envelope, the name of the college where you will enroll, are each of you enrolled at the place you would've written down? Witold?
Witold Ambroziak:
So for me it was Dartmouth all the way, kind of.
Lee Coffin:
Oh, okay. So you knew.
Witold Ambroziak:
Yeah, I applied early decision. I did my research before and I decided that if I'm already going abroad studying in another country, then I might as well go to a super cool school, which is Dartmouth. So I applied early decision. My second option was a school in Poland, a university in Poland. So it is the school that I wanted to get in.
Lee Coffin:
So the future happened. Mello, how about you?
Romello McRae:
I actually really wanted to go to MIT because I was a mathematics type of a guy, but I had visited—and not to discourage anybody who wants to go to MIT or anything, it's still a phenomenal place and all of that—Boston didn't really fit well. I didn't fit well in Boston, but visiting Dartmouth, I felt very comfortable, very familiar, and so this began to become my first option.
Lee Coffin:
Well, and what you're saying, Mello, is important because sometimes all of us have a reputation and people know the names of institutions, but each applicant, as a list take shapes, needs to do a reality check on where do I feel comfortable?
And if you had never been to Boston, you didn't have any way of understanding that option in that place, and that's a really fair and important way of starting to sort things out. So you had a slight change of plans from October 2023 to the present, which is good. Okay. Izzy?
Isabel Carleton:
I applied ED, which Dartmouth was my number one choice, I loved it so much but it was almost as if it almost felt out of reach, which now it wasn't. But it was like I was reaching out for this big goal I had and I had a lot of other schools I loved, so I wasn't going to be completely discouraged if I didn't get in. But getting in was the highlight of that whole experience.
Lee Coffin:
Well, I love that perspective that you had a clear choice, but you sound like it was a pragmatic type of love. You weren't like, if I don't go there, I will have failed.
Isabel Carleton:
I tried to keep that mindset because before, in the past, I make goals and then if I don't reach them it's like, oh, I should have done better. But it was like I felt confident in my other choices and other decisions and I was going to end up where I belonged and if that was Dartmouth, I would love it to be and that was my number one pick, but if it was somewhere else, it would've been okay.
Lee Coffin:
Okay, great. Ashley?
Ashley Kim:
Yeah, so I did not apply ED here. I applied RD and originally, I actually did not get in on March 27th, which I think was Ivy day. I got waitlisted. Originally, I was committed to Rice University. So until June, early June, I thought that I was going to Rice University, but then I got off the waitlist here.
Lee Coffin:
I love that because that's another important way the admission process plays out. But last October when you were starting to organize, would you have written a place on your list or did you have a lot of different options then?
Ashley Kim:
I ED’ed to Columbia and that was my dream school at the time. But I think I was very indecisive at the time, so I also had other options in mind, but if I had to put my number one option, it would've been Columbia.
Lee Coffin:
Okay. Well, and I asked you to start there because one of the points I'm hoping to make to high school seniors is that this is an evolving conversation with yourself. You learn new things, you visit cities and realize, oh, that's not my place, and your list changes or you apply and the decision is not what you expected. And you realize another door opened that brought me somewhere.
In your example, Ashley, Hanover, Hampshire and Houston, Texas and New York City are really different places. So the geography of your search shifted around. And then we have two people that were early applicants who said, "I see where I'm going." And focused on that. We'll come back to that.
High school students often would meet with their guidance counselor and schools get categorized as reaches and safeties and likelies. What are your thoughts on that looking backwards? Should people think about reaches as inaccessible or as, that's the prize, if I can get into a reach I win.
Or what are your thoughts as first year students around the way colleges get sorted into categories on your list? Should students be paying attention to that or be more confident? I think Izzy was around saying, "I have a choice, but I've got lots of choices."
Isabel Carleton:
I'll continue on what I was saying. So one of my college counselor, she didn't even classify safeties as safeties, they were targets because she was like, even in this world we live in, I lived in Columbus, so OSU was like the big thing. The Ohio State University, it's right there. I live 10 minutes away.
But even that was almost difficult for some students in my high school to get into, so it was a target school. But that's not to say you can't get into your safeties. I think it's great to have a very balanced list. That's what I did. But you should love all your schools.
You should be like, if the last school I get into is a school at the highest acceptance rate, you would love to go there, you're going to love your life there because if you don't have that mindset going into it immediately, you might not find that joy and love for it when that decision comes back.
Romello McRae:
Can I go off of what Izzy said?
Lee Coffin:
Of course, yeah.
Romello McRae:
I'm not going to lie. I made the biggest, well, it wasn't the biggest mistake obviously because we're here now, but I was applying to schools I had no interest in going to because they were safety schools. And so it was essentially a waste of time where I could use that energy to apply for scholarships and stuff like that.
Please apply to a school that you would actually go to, whether it's a safety, whether it's a reach or anything. And then on top of that, if you have the ability to apply to as many reach schools as possible, do that because I've seen a lot of instances where somebody was completely pessimistic about getting into a school and the next thing you know they're going there this fall. So never be too pessimistic. Anything could happen.
Lee Coffin:
Mello, why are people pessimistic?
Romello McRae:
Because of the percentages.
Lee Coffin:
The acceptance rates?
Romello McRae:
Yeah, it's ridiculous. You look at any of the Ivy Leagues, it's below seven, I believe. You look at any of the top 20s, it's always below 10 and it is just very discouraging. And then there's a common misconception that you have to cure cancer in order to get into a good school. I completely disagree with that.
I've seen people who were just a part, really big community members, get into the great schools and it's because it depends on who reviews your admission. So you may get somebody who was big in their community and so they relate with you and so now they're defending you. It's a game of luck in all honesty. That's why I say don't be pessimistic if you stress about things you can't control. You're just killing yourself with your own poison.
Lee Coffin:
Let's talk a little bit more about acceptance rates because I worry about that stat, may be more than any other part of the admission process, as being something that's a distraction to people. I think selectivity is important to note. I mean, you don't want to send in an app and think, I'm just going to walk in.
And I think having the pragmatism of saying, okay, this place has a 5% acceptance rate. I'm going to do my best. I hope it works out, but my next choice, which hopefully has a more inclusive acceptance rate, is also going to be a wonderful option. But did you find your peers were distracted by acceptance rates? Mello brings up the percentages as an issue. Did it prompt you to over apply maybe? Witold?
Witold Ambroziak:
My friends, for example, used it as an indicator of how good a school is. Obviously, it's competitive, but they used it mostly as how prestigious it is saying that, oh, I got into a school that has a below 7% acceptance rate.
In reality, I think that doesn't really matter that much because it varies every year and it's more dependent on how many students apply to the college because the college cannot really expand their places as much as the students can apply. So it's more of an indication of how desired the spots are.
Lee Coffin:
Ashley, what are your thoughts on this?
Ashley Kim:
I was also one of those high school seniors that got discouraged by these acceptance rates because they were so low. And I think with that mindset, you can't really do anything because to be honest, for a lot of these top 20 schools and even just any school in general, there are so many qualified applicants and if the school were to just accept these students based off of their GPA or SAT or how smart they are, then there is no individuality to that school.
So I truly believe that a school does choose students based off of their character too. And I think for me, this was more so for my case because I was on the waitlist and I remember checking Dartmouth's waitlist acceptance rate for last year and it was 0%. They took zero students off the waitlist. And so I was very discouraged by that.
I was like, there's no way I'm getting into Dartmouth. I'm just going to give up. But you never know. I ended up getting off the waitlist even though last year's waitlist acceptance rate was quite literally 0%. You shouldn't really consider them when it comes to which schools you apply to or trying to calculate your chances of getting into a school.
I know there are some websites that allow you to put in your GPA and SAT and then they'll calculate your chances of getting into a certain school. That's just not true. I think those things are just ways to discourage students from applying to certain schools.
Lee Coffin:
Well, I think those sites, I shook my head when you were saying that, I'm like, ugh. Because to the point a bunch of you have made, you can type in the data you just described Ashley, but it doesn't include the essay or an interview or all that make you a person that then help us build a community based on the other attributes you have besides a couple of statistics that go into that formula.
As a dean, I get frustrated by those kind of projections because the guidance counselor is the person who has the best sense of what's happened out of your high school in recent years. But even that person doesn't always know this is the way it's going to land.
Let's talk a little bit about stress because a couple of you have said stress was part of your senior year about applying to college. And I always hate hearing that. As somebody who's been doing this for a long time, I don't like the idea that I'm in a job that generates stress for people I am working with.
So a year ago, what was animating the stress, not just for you, but your peer group. You were all high achievers or try-hards I think was Ashley's word. Where does the stress come from? It's getting in. I think that Mello points to the acceptance rates is something that people maybe were overthinking how important they were. But what else was creating some anxiety about applying to college?
Witold Ambroziak:
I think that that combined with studying for the finals is a very stressful combination. That's why actually I decided to apply early decision because then if I get accepted, I don't have any stress afterwards because I know that I'm accepted so I can focus on my finals.
:
If I don't get accepted, then I can review my application maybe and adapt what I could do for the next application. And I think that also the main issue for high school students, for seniors is time management. So if they don't manage their time wisely, they will end up being stressed. I'm speaking from my own experience, so I know what I'm talking about.
Lee Coffin:
Also, give us an example, Witold, from the admissions part of this, time management means what? Your owning that time management maybe wasn't your signature quality last year. Was that about getting your essays done or what was making your time management slip?
Witold Ambroziak:
So I guess it was mostly the inability to assign time for certain assignments, basically. For example, as soon as now in college, as soon as I get an assignment, I put it on my to-do lists where and which day of the week from when to when, and I managed to do it.
And before that I didn't really use Google Calendar or Apple Calendar and it is a useful technique to do. And then when I don't write it down or I don't put it in my schedule, I sometimes forget it and then I remember it two days before the due date or on the due date and it becomes stressful to say the least. That's basically it.
Lee Coffin:
Well, I think when you're applying to a lot of colleges, we all have deadlines. It may be the same date, but we have different elements. And I'm wondering for those of you who applied regular decision, how many did you apply to? Let's start there.
Ashley Kim:
So I applied to a total of 22 schools.
Lee Coffin:
Oh boy.
Ashley Kim:
Yeah, I would not recommend. I am probably one of the most biggest procrastinators.
Lee Coffin:
People listening can't see, you all nodded when Ashley said that.
Ashley Kim:
But yeah, I think it was hard for me to balance having fun in my senior year since it was my last year of high school. I wanted to make the most out of it, but also balancing college applications. And so yes, it was very stressful for me, but I think it helped a lot that I was able to rethink and basically reflect on my whole life because a lot of these college application essays ask you to do that.
And in a way, it was a stress reliever. Throughout the college application process, I was able to find out more about myself and who I am as a person. I want to give advice to all the high school seniors and say that you shouldn't miss out on making memories in your senior year for college applications because you want to have a good balance of both.
One thing I regret is, first of all, is procrastinating. Definitely don't do that. And the second thing I would regret is also not going out enough with my friends and making more good memories with my high school friends and my high school class.
Lee Coffin:
I love that you said that because I say that all the time. You're 17 or 18 years old, you need to preserve the opportunity to play. As a dean of admission, I say that people say, thought I was supposed to be working all the time. I was like, no, you're supposed to have a balanced life.
So Ashley, when you said you applied to 22 and you giggled and you said, "I don't recommend that." I don't recommend that either, but why don't you recommend it?
Ashley Kim:
Similar to what Mello said earlier, a lot of these schools I didn't really have that much interest in. It was just I applied for the sake of applying. I was like, oh, what if I can get in? But I think an advice that I would give to high school seniors is definitely do thorough research and apply to schools that you truly want to attend and you see yourself being there.
Ashley Kim:
And I think another thing that I will say is a lot of these schools I applied to because of their stereotypes and each college has their own stereotypes and it might encourage or discourage some students from applying to these certain schools, but I will say that there's so much more to a school than their stereotypes. And half of the time, these stereotypes aren't even true and they're just made up by people who didn't even attend the college.
And if I were to go back in time, I would definitely do more research so that I wouldn't have to judge a school based on their stereotypes or basically the four things that I've heard about each school. That's what I would say.
Lee Coffin:
Well, I would imagine too, back to Witold's comment about time management, applying to 22 places by January 1st-ish, that must've been quite a spreadsheet to keep yourself organized.
Ashley Kim:
Oh yeah, for sure. I actually didn't apply to all my schools before January 1st. I remember I would submit my application the day it was due and each school has a different due date. I would definitely not recommend that, but yeah.
Lee Coffin:
I'm nodding because I was like, oh, you're one of those. Because in the last week of the app cycle, we get about a third of the applicants land in about 48 hours because there's a lot of Ashley saying, "Oh, it's the deadline." And you click submit and it happens every year. It's fun to watch, but it's a processing nightmare. Mello, how did you keep yourself organized in regular decision? How many did you apply to?
Romello McRae:
I also applied to 22, surprisingly enough. And all honesty, I had a phenomenal stress-free college applying life. But I will say it's because I started very, very early, I would recommend having a base paragraph. They're going to ask you, "Oh, why do you want to come to our school?"
That common app, those essays, if you take those and you just adjust it a little bit to every college question that they asked, I promise you you could push out 10 applications easy and it is just flying. Next thing you know you're at 22 and you're like, wait, I got to slow down.
Lee Coffin:
So the two of you generated some volume earlier. We were talking about selectivity and the acceptance rate is a function of how many spots in the class and how many people applied for those seats. So the more you apply, the harder it is to give in just generally.
And this admission process… it's like a snake that kind of wraps around itself and the volume creates selectivity and then the selectivity creates more volume and it's like, everybody stop. So Izzy, you're listening to this. So you applied early, what's resonating with you? Maybe you witnessed your classmates at Bexley going through similar things.
Isabel Carleton:
So my list was 16 schools and by the time I applied to Dartmouth, I had applied to seven of them and I had pretty much applications prepped for all the other ones. So I was right there with them in all of the essays. And like what Mello was saying, everyone has a YS essay, lots of people have a community essay.
You have to play the game in that sense. You can come up with your major points, your major ideas, your selling points for yourself, and then draft those essays, start earlier than you think. I had friends who started the common app essay, the personal statement in June, and I finished mine near the end of October and that was so stressful.
I think a lot of it is the environment of high school as well because you have your classmates, your best friends, all in this high stress time of their life being around other people who are also in this high stress time of their life stressing out each other, and it's basically all you talk about is college for a good five months.
And then it's like, well what do we do now? So take a break, have fun, and just be reasonable with yourself and what you can do and who you want to apply to and what time you have to put into these applications.
Lee Coffin:
So you've all said the same thing in different ways. If someone had told you that last year, would you have listened?
Isabel Carleton:
Yes.
Lee Coffin:
Oh good.
Isabel Carleton:
Maybe. I think about halfway through I started listening to it when people were telling me it because I didn't focus as much as I should have focused on my applications and my counselor got upset with me about that. But that was fine.
Once I adapted an understanding, it was also because I loved all my schools that whatever happens, whatever was meant to happen was going to happen. A rejection is just redirection. I'm putting myself out there. They don't want me right now, they don't want me right now. Someone else will.
Lee Coffin:
Izzy, I just wrote that down. A rejection is just redirection. I love that. Mello?
Romello McRae:
Also, I want to go off what Izzy said, do not let the past year of applicants discourage you from anything. The last year could have been a drought, but this year you guys are all going to get into the school you want. The admission process is very weird in that way. So you never know what could happen your year.
Lee Coffin:
No, you're right. And Ashley made this point about the wait list where the year before nobody, and then last year we took several. So you can't always know how the cycle plays out. My advice would be control what you can control. You control where you apply and how many you control how you write your applications. What story are you telling about yourself?
And I loved your comments about, I think Ashley said it made that moment of reflection was really powerful. It should be. As an educator I think great. I mean that is a win when the act of applying has made you pause and think, who am I? Where am I going? Why am I doing this?
And those are the authentic applications that work because we meet you that way and we say, I understand who's just applied and the seat I might offer her in the class we're building, but it's the getting away from the noise.
But I think that peer-to-peer conversation that Izzy's talking about too gets in the way sometimes where you're all in this like a rugby match and there's just scrum moving across the field and you need to break out of it a little bit and that may be harder to do. And I'm wondering, did social media contribute to this? Were you seeing each other post things? Yes, Izzy?
Isabel Carleton:
Yes. I think everyone these days everyone's seen them. The commitment Instagram pages, you want to put your picture on the commitment Instagram page with your cute little baby picture and the place you went to school and everyone in your school, in your town can see where you're going to school and can congratulate you.
Isabel Carleton:
And it's like, oh, this person's going here, this person's going here. And it puts you on a pedestal being able to be compared directly to your peers where it's like that's not the full story. It's not the full story. And social media, just the way people present the whole college prestige, social media as it always does, just increases the stress.
Lee Coffin:
Witold, I'm wondering if this sounds true from your perspective as an international student. Was this the same situation in Brazil or Poland?
Witold Ambroziak:
So obviously, there are schools that are known for being very prestigious, like Ivy League schools, and I think that social media contributes to that kind of chase after those schools in particular because for example, our school had an Instagram page and our class, class of 2024, and we would post our acceptances basically.
So it would be a way of gaining respect from your peers and attention and so on. I actually decided not to put mine on there for those reasons, so I didn't put mine mine. All my friends knew that I got there, but I didn't put my acceptance on that page. I thought it was unnecessary.
Lee Coffin:
That's very humble. And let's talk about geography because you each ended up at a college that was far from home, some farther than others. So an airplane is part of your commute.
If you're a high school senior, what advice do you give them about distance from home and how that should play into the list they're shaping and the decisions they're making or not? Has it been a non-factor or has it been really important to, Mello talked about Boston not being where he saw himself. How did that play out for each of you around geography and home?
Witold Ambroziak:
For me, the geographical aspect was important because the climate here is similar to the climate in Poland and I think it's really important to take that into account because being in Brazil and in a school in Brazil, I think that people should consider the change in temperature, for example, because coming from Brazil to here, there's going to be a huge temperature drop.
Actually, I know a couple of people here who have seen snow at Dartmouth for the first time. So it is cold, it's getting cold, and that's a thing to consider. And regarding the distance from home, for me it wasn't that big of a problem, but it's also something to consider. How far away are you? Do you have any relatives nearby that can help you in some situation or whatever? That's something important to consider too.
Lee Coffin:
So far has it made you a bit more independent to be farther away?
Witold Ambroziak:
Yeah, I have had some experiences here. The day that I arrived at the US it was 2nd of September, they lost my luggage, so then I had to walk around the airport and then deal with everything like that. I think that made me more independent. Yes, for sure.
Lee Coffin:
Wow. How long was your luggage lost?
Witold Ambroziak:
I came back from the first year trip and it was here already.
Lee Coffin:
Oh, so you left the airport without your luggage?
Witold Ambroziak:
Yeah, yeah. They didn't have it. They actually didn't bring it to the airport. So it was stuck still at the layover airport. And then I think it was a week. Yeah, about a week.
Lee Coffin:
Well, that's an arrival story.
Witold Ambroziak:
So it did make me more independent and I'm still learning it.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, that's good. How about city versus rural?
Romello McRae:
Okay, that's another thing. I have never seen this many trees in my life. Being in LA, it's all cars, it's always noise, that's one thing, it's always noise. And it's to the point where it's hard for me to sleep because it's so quiet.
Obviously, now I love it. I sleep like a baby. But before, it would be like why am I hearing my heartbeat? It's the craziest thing. I'm so used to hearing sirens or a helicopter or just the street cars on the street.
Ashley Kim:
I'll also say that I thought I'd be extremely homesick because I've never really lived away from my family before. But it wasn't really like that for me because there's so much to do here at Dartmouth, so I'm always doing something and I'm busy with something, so I don't really feel homesick, if that makes sense.
Lee Coffin:
No, it does make sense. Well, I wanted to talk about parents for a sec. So homesickness brought me to parents or guardians or siblings, but let's stick with the parent piece first. How did you choreograph the role of your parents in your college admission process?
Isabel Carleton:
They decided to take a step back and let the counselor help me mostly because they went to college in the 90s, they applied in the 80s. They didn't know anything about what it was like now. And I think that was pretty helpful because I didn't have the stress of college coming from the home.
If I wanted to rant up to them, I could go and they would be there, but if I didn't want to talk about college that day, it would be okay. I am really grateful for the way they went about it because they never put the pressure of college applications on me and they were more so a support system if I needed them to look over essays, if I needed them to just give me a hug because I can't write, writer's block is killing me.
And I know not everyone can say that that's the role their parents had. But parents, if you're out there, your kids can do it. They've got it. You know what? If you really want some support, if you want to support them, listen to this podcast.
Lee Coffin:
Thank you for the promotion. I love that.
Isabel Carleton:
Yes.
Lee Coffin:
How about the rest of you? Did any of you have a mom or dad that was very active in this process with you?
Romello McRae:
I would say that it wasn't necessarily for applying to college, it was to afford college.
Lee Coffin:
Afford college.
Romello McRae:
I would say for every college you apply to, you need to apply to at least one scholarship, just one. So with that, my mom, she didn't stress at all because one, I was on top of it. That's another thing, if you're on top of it, your parent is not going to be on top of you because then you could tell them, "Mom, I've already applied to this many."
Lee Coffin:
Did affordability enter into the parent conversation when you were moving through the process? When did that happen? If it did it all, did it happen now in the fall? Did it happen after you got in? Where and when was that conversation taking place?
Romello McRae:
So definitely in the fall it was like research how much financial aid and the percentage of students who get financial aid.
Lee Coffin:
My advice to families is sooner is better when affordability is part of the story, getting a net price calculator and plugging in your stats and saying, here's a projection of what this institution will cost us. Does that seem doable? And if the answer is yes, proceed. If the answer is no, expand your list or change their criteria.
So if there's a scholarship school or a state university, change the mix. But the danger is when you wait till the end, you can't redirect yourself. So it's a different version of a rejection is just redirection. When you get to the end, hard to redirect if you haven't put options in motion sooner than later.
Witold Ambroziak:
I want to give advice to international students because it's being need-blind plays a big role for international students. There are a lot of schools that are need-blind for American students, but need-aware for international students. So as you go through your application process, check whether your school needs blind for international students.
Lee Coffin:
And related to that, the other thing you can look up and that's important is does the college meet full demonstrated need for US citizens, international citizens? And when the answer is yes, you're in a good space. When the answer is no, then the next question is to what degree? So that you have the information you need as you get to the finish.
As we wrap, give one piece of advice to high school seniors who are, it's late October, it's not even Halloween and there's a lot of work ahead of them, decisions that need to be made. And what words of wisdom do you have?
Witold Ambroziak:
Just be yourself in your application. If the school doesn't accept you, if the school doesn't want you for who you are, then it's good that you don't go there. It's good that they reject you. So it's good to go to a school who wants you for what you are and focus on your application. So I spent a lot of time doing my essay, the personal statement, pay attention to your work.
Isabel Carleton:
I'll give two pieces of advice. The first one, I feel like people don't say enough, reach out. Reach out to alumni in your area to learn more about the school. Reach out to current students that you may know at the school. Ask about their experiences, their favorite parts.
Maybe if you have the opportunity to reach out to professors, ask for a syllabus or sit in on a class. Not only are you learning about the school and the application process from first-year experiences, but you have a chance to make an impression with someone and that someone may be the person who advocates for you in the future.
And then the second piece of advice goes back to what Witold was saying about being yourself. Your application is the story of you. Tell that story. So just find the place where you can be you. Just put yourself out there. That's what you're doing in your application.
Lee Coffin:
Well, you're ending on optimism, which I love. So Witold, Ashley, Mello, Izzy, it's been fun having this conversation with you. I really appreciate your thoughtfulness as you reflected on your own searches and shared that wisdom, that fresh perspective with the students who are right behind you in this admissions parade. So thank you very much.
Isabel Carleton:
Thank you.
Lee Coffin:
Bye guys. I always love having these conversations with students and to hear their organic, authentic voices as they think about the topic at hand and the work I do. And sometimes I'm a little sobered by what they tell me, but they are savvy consumers.
Lee Coffin:
So,second part of our doubleheader, we'll have another savvy consumer. A mom will reflect back on her son's journey through his admission process last year. And we will say hi again to my friend Ronnie Burnett as she looks back on last year and her son's journey. So we'll be right back.
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Lee Coffin:
Welcome back. So part two of our doubleheader is a repeat visit from a guest we met in February. Ronnie Burnett from Chicago was one of the admission moms who knew too much. And when we met her in episode 505, which aired on February 27th this year, she was the only guest with a senior in high school.
So we thought, let's bring her back. We've heard from our four students and now we've got a mom who rode along through last year's admission process and is looking back with some wisdom that I hope she shares. So Ronnie Burnett, welcome back to Admission Beat.
Ronnie Burnett:
Thank you so much.
Lee Coffin:
So for listeners who might've missed episode 505 which was the fifth episode of season five, for those of you keeping track, I had three guests, all of whom had been admission officers once upon a time or still, and who now had children in high school going to and through the college admission process. And I wondered then what it was like to be a parent with inside information on the way this works.
Quite literally, you know how the sausage is made, but now you're a parent going on visits, going on tours, watching someone fill out an application, and was that a good thing or a bad thing?
So in your case, Ronnie, your son, Gideon, was a senior last year, went through the college admission process and pick up the story in February. So when we met you on that episode, apps had been filed, results were pending. Take us from February through May, how it played out.
Ronnie Burnett:
February was calm.
Lee Coffin:
Calm?
Ronnie Burnett:
And that was unexpected. I thought that the period between January 1st and the last week in March, I thought that that would feel like the night before Christmas. You can't get it out of your head and you know it's coming and you can't sleep. And instead, there was a zen.
I think putting it to bed knowing that you did all that you could, Gideon did all that he could, and it was now out of our hands and we just moved on.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, I think that's really good advice, making peace with you, put your best foot forward and the decisions are out of your hand. That sounds easier said than done, but I think it's really good advice to take a step away.
And so for the seniors this year and their parents, once you hit submit, you do have a little oasis of peace coming where there's nothing more to do and there'll be a very active period in the spring if you're in the regular decision space. So the decision started to come in. How did that feel?
Ronnie Burnett:
Well, that felt wonderful. The first few decisions come in and they are positive. And then you have the next couple and you are out of the game. But we kept going back to, but I got into X, Y, Z. And Gideon's someone who moves on.
Lee Coffin:
He's a happy guy.
Ronnie Burnett:
Yes. And so at the very end, he got into his first choice, he's there and couldn't be happier.
Lee Coffin:
So was the first choice one of the last ones he heard from?
Ronnie Burnett:
No.
Lee Coffin:
Oh good.
Ronnie Burnett:
It was like three quarters of the way in.
Lee Coffin:
Good. And so describe the moment. So he gets an email saying your decision is ready. Did he retreat into his bedroom and close the door? How did he open that decision?
Ronnie Burnett:
He opened it. The confetti or something is on the screen. He's a very calm person. Really, what he did was inhale as if he couldn't believe it. And then my husband and I were ecstatic for him that he had the opportunity.
Lee Coffin:
I love that. So he had several offers of admission and I think that's often a surprise to families. I think there's a conventional wisdom out there that regular decision is harder than early decision. And Gideon didn't go anywhere early from remembering that, right?
Ronnie Burnett:
He had one early action school and then he was deferred.
Lee Coffin:
So he was doing all of his decision-making in the spring?
Ronnie Burnett:
Yeah. And that was scary, Lee. Going back to moms who know too much, I knew that because of the volume, regular decision was going to be like a roulette. And there were moments when I thought we should have gone ED and I shouldn't have said, let's roll with regular decision. So I did have nervous moments around that in particular.
Lee Coffin:
And yet he ended up with multiple offers.
Ronnie Burnett:
Yes.
Lee Coffin:
So it worked. So you're my proof point. I think people worry that it won't. You just shared your own jitters around that, but more often than not, 1, 2, 5 places, sometimes more will invite you into the class. And then you get to April, and so Gideon got into his first choice, but I know he still pondered the other options. So walk us through the journey from late March to May 1st.
Ronnie Burnett:
Sure. Well, at that point it did feel like Christmas because we had invitations to the accepted students events. I felt like I was a little on edge, but we flew out and he got to stay overnight in a dorm. We were there for two and a half days. It was wonderful. And he came out of it shaky.
Lee Coffin:
Shaky how?
Ronnie Burnett:
I think when you get the thing you want, you go, do I really want this?
Lee Coffin:
Doubt?
Ronnie Burnett:
Yes. And so the following weeks were kind of somber. But then he was communicating with his host. And one morning, I went to his room to see him and he was with his dog wearing a Williams T-shirt and I thought, I think we're done.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, he put on the uniform of Williams and that was it?
Ronnie Burnett:
Yeah.
Lee Coffin:
And it was a good fit? Pardon the pun.
Ronnie Burnett:
Yes. Yeah. Yes.
Lee Coffin:
And he knew. Okay, so that, listeners, there's a journey from submitting your applications, waiting, getting in, pondering, certifying that it's the right fit and then you know it when you know it. But if I were to bring you back, Ronnie, so this episode's airing in late October.
So just a year ago, you were the mother of a senior in high school and consuming all the information, mothers of seniors in high school consume. If you can go back in time and tap Ronnie on the shoulder in October 2023 and say, "Psst, here's what happens, chill out." What would you tell yourself?
Ronnie Burnett:
Well, I would say chill out.
Lee Coffin:
Chill out.
Ronnie Burnett:
I think everyone in my family would say chill out. No, no. I would say separate yourself from the noise and the over information. All of the chatter when you talk to people, they have different knowledge. And all of this is so personal. It's so personal. I remembered from the process the admissions officers want to cheer you on. They want to be your advocate.
And if people could see in committee the ways in which the admissions officers just stand behind these kids. And then also there's great disappointment if one of your kids doesn't make it through committee. But I knew because it was such a personal process that I couldn't be taking other people's advice.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, I think for parents listening, whether you're a senior or a junior parent, this is the trick, is how to disentangle yourself from the noise and well-intentioned opinions that aren't always well-informed. And I think Ronnie, what's interesting about what you just said is you knew that this was a more multidimensional question than the public understood.
And it's why I do the podcast. It's like to help people hear it from my mouth. Chill is a good thing. And listen to the experts. Don't always listen to the neighbor.
Ronnie Burnett:
Yes. One area, Lee, is with AP courses, there's a lot of talk amongst parents about if you're at a school that doesn't have AP courses, that you are in a negative position. And that's not true.
Lee Coffin:
Right? That's not true. It's not true. And just to take that a step further, we read every transcript based on the school that produced it. So a school that has made a pedagogical decision around advanced placement courses or IB courses or honors courses or however a curriculum is organized.
A student could only choose courses as offered by the faculty of her school. In a selective pool, we are expecting a student to have chosen the rigor available, but when the rigor is named something else, we follow the something else. And that's one size does not fit all. So if you had a second child, what would you do the same or differently?
Ronnie Burnett:
Oh, that's such a great question, Lee. I would encourage them so strongly to complete their essay over the summer. The essay just really, for us, just hung over because you're ping-ponging from what do they want to hear? And am I being authentic enough?
The essay is one. I would see the first semester of senior year as sacred and no more college visits because even when Gideon had time days off, he was working. Any little thing amped up the stress.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, I think that's really great advice. For the seniors and their parents are like, uh-oh, it's October. But I think the applicable advice from Ronnie here is don't wait until the week before the deadline to get the essays or the supplemental materials written and edited. Juniors, you got a lot of time to do this. But for the seniors, start now.
Lee Coffin:
And a point you made, Ronnie, that I just want to come back to. A lot of people get stuck on the essay with this question, what do they want to hear? Underscore “they.” The pronoun “they” in this case means me and my peers. It's reading what you share with us and there's no correct answer. There's no default that every essay needs to produce. I think that's dangerous actually.
When someone goes down the what do they want to know? What do they want to read? It's not authentic. You're telling me something that you think scratches the itch but might not. And a better essay is what do I want to tell them about me.
Ronnie Burnett:
On that point, I think students get stuck with, I've had 17 years on this planet. What in my biography am I going to dig up and use to represent me, represent the authentic me? There are prompts, yes, but somehow it still is a nerve-wrecking thing.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, I understand that because I hear it from students, I hear it from parents, I read about it and I'll just keep saying it. Tell your story. The tiniest piece could be illuminating and the narrative does not need to be framed around some sensational thing that happened to you or didn't happen to you or might have happened to you.
You could be talking about walking your dog and that is a meaningful topic because it illuminates a person in a way that's helpful. Well, let's go to the contemporary moment. So Gideon is working his way through his first semester at Williams.
Ronnie Burnett:
Yes.
Lee Coffin:
How's it going?
Ronnie Burnett:
It's going well. We actually saw him this weekend. He thinks the professors are excellent and he's meeting students and joining clubs. I see such a change in him even now, the independence that he's had. It's still Gideon, but Gideon 2.0
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, I love that. Was the drop-off poignant?
Ronnie Burnett:
So I got some really good advice from you and I used it. I really focused on Gideon and this being Gideon's moment, managing my emotions so he could have this moment and it worked.
Lee Coffin:
And you got home and you have a quiet house.
Ronnie Burnett:
Oh my gosh, you could hear a pin drop in here.
Lee Coffin:
It's funny when a seventeen-year-old boy leaves and you're like, wow.
Ronnie Burnett:
It's eerie. I'll tell you, that's when I had my emotion. I walked into his bedroom and burst into tears.
Lee Coffin:
Oh, did you miss him?
Ronnie Burnett:
Because I missed him. But the daily life is so different without him. We're remaking our days and we kept saying in the early weeks to each other, how did 18 years go by so fast? And my husband, he's described this as the most intense experience he's ever been through. And we were on the sidelines.
Lee Coffin:
You are and you aren't, right? I mean, you're watching, but I think parents are very much in the admission process with their applicant. The applicant is the lead actor in this performance, but you're definitely supporting actors. You're part of this journey and you're invested in the outcome.
So for families, students, you're going off to college and your adventure turbocharges and all these exciting directions. But for parents, there's a different transition that happens at home where children come and go, but you're moving into a different phase of family and that's post admission.
But I am glad we're touching it because I think this is part of it. Again, I don't know that we all spend a lot of time talking about the moments after you drop someone off and go home. But thank you for sharing that and now it's good. Now you're like, this is awesome.
Ronnie Burnett:
Yes, I'm getting there.
Lee Coffin:
Well, Ronnie, thanks for coming back on Admissions Beat and completing the loop from where we were in February to where we are now in October. And for I think giving a lot of parents out there, words of wisdom to get through the next few months as the admission process plays out, but to also plan for the moments ahead where maybe a tissue is in the pocket.
Ronnie Burnett:
It's a good idea.
Lee Coffin:
It's a good idea. Thanks again for coming back on Admissions Beat.
Ronnie Burnett:
Thank you for having me, Lee.
Lee Coffin:
Of course, always. When we come back, Charlotte Albright will join me to answer a couple of listener questions. See you in a minute. So journalists and residents, Charlotte Albright returns on air with some listener questions. Hi, Charlotte.
Charlotte Albright:
Hello there.
Lee Coffin:
What is the Admissions Beat universe wondering about?
Charlotte Albright:
We've gotten a couple of emails lately and one of them has to do with early decision, which is very timely because you've just been talking about that with Ronnie. So let me read it in part.
“My family and I are avid listeners of the Admissions Beat podcast and have found it extremely helpful. Your insights have provided much needed guidance and we greatly appreciate your expertise.
In a recent episode, I listened to your comments on early decision where you stated the pressure to apply early because you think it will give you a strategic advantage at a very, very selective school. That's not a reason to apply early, it's not true.”
And this writer goes on.
“Given the widespread belief that ED does improve one's chances of admission, I believe clarifying this point would be beneficial for families trying to make informed decisions. It would help reconcile the need for authentic fit with the reality of early decisions, statistical advantage.” So Lee, what's say you about this?
Lee Coffin:
So there's two ways of answering this. So one is another reminder that all admission data is not as transparent as it seems and in this example, the early decision acceptance rate when it's reported seems less selective than perhaps the regular decision on some campuses. And I'm talking about the really selective part of the spectrum here, not the bread and butter part of college admission.
Hidden in the early cohort on a lot of campuses are things like recruited athletes. So in every place where I've worked, the coaches steer their recruits into early, they've been pre-read, they've been pre-screened, they're admitted one for one in that round because we've already done the homework, that makes the acceptance rate seem higher than it actually is.
There might be other cohorts that are going to get in April, they're going to get in November. Don't worry about that. If you look at the early cohort and measure their characteristics against regular decision, the profiles are the same. I would advise families over the next couple of weeks as the early deadlines come and go.
If it's early action, if it's non-binding, proceed, there's no risk there. Early response and you could proceed. If it's binding, if it's early decision, I would say follow fit more than strategy.
And I think the story that you're pondering came from the 90s when there was a very different admission environment then, and I think it was a bit more of an advantage during that economic moment than it is today. A reach doesn't become a likely because it's early.
Charlotte Albright:
So before we go, I'm going to throw one more question at you because you and Ronnie were talking about essay writing and the whole narrative process. This comes from the parent of a son who is working on his common application and has a question that they're hoping you could answer preferably before November 1st. I think we'll just squeeze it in.
“Could you please talk about the additional information page of the common app? How is it best used? How should it not be used? Is information preferred in paragraph form or bullet points? Could it potentially have a negative impact to provide additional details about activities that did not fit into the application?” What do we want to say about that?
Lee Coffin:
Let's debunk the last question first. It's not going to be negative. The additional information is not required. It's there on the common app in particular as a way of saying if there's some other piece of information that didn't fit into one of these other spaces, put it here.
Some artistically inclined students will include a portfolio as an additional piece of information and say, I'm pre-med but I still love to act. Here's a snippet of monologue I'd like you to know so that you can see me in this theatrical context. Great. You might be somebody who had some research around a science project and you want to put that in, great.
It's like if there's something you want to share, great. If it remains empty, fine. There's no format that matters. More or less, it's a completely open-ended space to include or not, one last piece of info.
Charlotte Albright:
Is there a tendency or a risk though that becomes a catch-all that you do just a laundry list of everything you've ever done? Does that matter?
Lee Coffin:
It's not helpful. I don't know that it matters, but it doesn't move the process forward. I mean, some people will include a resume there. We have your extracurricular section. Generally, that's all the information we needed. I think the bigger question I think that's here is whether it's additional information or an optional element.
Like at Dartmouth, we have a peer recommendation. I think it's recommended, not optional. Colleges will give students these opportunities to contribute a little bit more information. I would say that all applicants at this pre-application step come up with an outline.
This is the story I'm telling as I introduce myself. These are the things I hope to highlight, and which part of the application let you highlight that thing. And if you get to the end of your application and you realize, oh, I really wanted to talk about drama to stick with the example I gave earlier and I didn't include it anywhere.
There you have it. That's additional information. But don't look at this part of the app as one more thing you must do. So thanks for those questions. Happy to have had a chance to offer a couple more thoughts on those topics. Covered a lot of ground this week with our fresh perspectives students and Ronnie.
And hope it was a helpful way of reminding you this process moves quickly and before you know it, boom, you're on a campus and hope the lessons of the people who were here last year help you move forward.
If you're enjoying Admission Beat, please like us on whichever platform you find your podcast. Please subscribe. It helps others identify this as a useful resource for college admission. For now, I'm Lee Coffin from Dartmouth College. I will see you next week. Thanks for listening.
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