For many students around the world, college presents a rare opportunity to change the arc of a life, to pursue the fabled “American Dream,” where anything can happen for anyone. But for those who are first in their families to attend and graduate from college—a cohort known as “first gen”—the promise of upward mobility means navigating what, for some, can be a mystifying admissions process. “I didn’t know what I didn’t know,” Dartmouth Dean Lee Coffin remembers about applying as a first-gen to college. Three veteran counselors from access-oriented schools and organizations in Boston, Los Angeles, and Kentucky join the AB host, sharing stories and tips about how to celebrate a unique life experience throughout an application and, later, on a college campus. As one observes, “It is time to showcase your tenacity, grit, and a desire for more.”
For many students around the world, college presents a rare opportunity to change the arc of a life, to pursue the fabled “American Dream,” where anything can happen for anyone. But for those who are first in their families to attend and graduate from college—a cohort known as “first gen”—the promise of upward mobility means navigating what, for some, can be a mystifying admissions process. “I didn’t know what I didn’t know,” Dartmouth Dean Lee Coffin remembers about applying as a first-gen to college. Three veteran counselors from access-oriented schools and organizations in Boston, Los Angeles, and Kentucky join the AB host, sharing stories and tips about how to celebrate a unique life experience throughout an application and, later, on a college campus. As one observes, “It is time to showcase your tenacity, grit, and a desire for more.”
Lee Coffin:
From Hanover, New Hampshire. I'm Lee Coffin, Dartmouth's Vice President and Dean of Admission and Financial Aid. And this is Admissions Beat.
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I often talk about my first-gen background when I'm podding, and for those of you who scratch your head and say, "Who's first-gen?" first-gen is first-generation college bound. I didn't know back in the fall of 1980 that that was an identity that I should have owned for myself. It wasn't something we were talking about then, but it was very much part of me and the experience I had in high school and certainly college as I made my way through a environment that was very unfamiliar but was also clearly opportunity. Since I was a little kid, I knew I was going to college. I don't know where that idea came from, but my grandparents nurtured it. My mom and dad did not discourage it. And I moved from kindergarten to 12th grade with a very clear perspective that I was going to finish high school and go to college.
And for me, that was an adventure nobody else in my family at that point had taken. And I remember the day I graduated from Trinity College, my paternal grandfather came up to me and gave me a hug, and he was not someone known for his emotions. And he gave me a hug and he said, "Young man, you're the first in a long line of Coffins to have that piece of paper in your hand." And as I say that, I get a little teary all these years later because it was important. It was important to me certainly, but it was important to my family because I was first. And so this week I want to lean in to this idea that college is opportunity. That for so many of us around the United States and around the world, college represents ambition, it represents opportunity. It represents a rare chance to change the arc of your life, to lean in to your ability to be a student and to come out four years later with a degree that puts you on a path that you otherwise would not have.
And that is my story. I look around every day and I think, look where I am. It wasn't an accident. It was intentional. It was hard work. The upward mobility that I experienced and that my peers from similar backgrounds experienced by virtue of going to a college and getting a degree is something really important. And I hear a lot of conversations right now about college and, "Is it worth it?" And, "Should I go?" And, "It's so expensive." "Are colleges just too out of reach for most people?" And I say, "No, college is in reach for everyone." And we want to have a conversation this week with three colleagues who work really hard with full passion to make this story possible. So when we come back, we'll say hello to Erica Rosales, Chris Reeves and Diane Scott, and hear about their work in L.A., Kentucky and Boston and how they're changing lives by the work they do every day. So we'll be right back.
Hello friends.
Diane Scott:
Hi, Lee.
Erica Rosales:
Hi.
Lee Coffin:
Hey there.
Chris Reeves:
How you doing?
Lee Coffin:
Good to see you. Nice to see you all again. I think to get started might make sense for each of you to share with the audience where you work, what your role is and who you serve. Three places that have a similar mission, but with really different constituencies. So we'll do alphabetical. Chris, welcome back.
Chris Reeves:
Thanks, Lee. Chris Reeves. I work at the Craft Academy for Excellence in Science and Mathematics in Morehead, Kentucky. And I thought it was interesting when you introduced all of us. Diane's from a city, Erica's from a city, but I get the whole state of Kentucky. Here I am in eastern Kentucky in the hills of Appalachia, and I work at a two-year STEM residential dual credit high school. So our students apply, they enter between 10th and 11th grade and beginning 11th grade, we throw them to the wolves, those wolves being Morehead State college professors. We do not have classes set aside for our students. They go and take all kinds of amazing opportunities, amazing classes that they wouldn't otherwise have gotten to take. Also, one more quick thing, I'm the co-host of the Reeves and Ford podcast, a college admissions podcast for all. So thank you, Lee, for letting me do this.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, of course. I loved to cross-pollinate and thanks for that. And Chris, your students come from all across Kentucky, mostly public high schools?
Chris Reeves:
They do, yeah, mostly public high schools. Tuition-driven private high schools don't really necessarily want us poaching their students after two years, so occasionally we get a couple. But yeah, we taking students from all over Kentucky. Our service region in a way is prioritized in Appalachia, but we love all of our students from everywhere, from all over the state.
Lee Coffin:
So let's stick with Kentucky for a sec. Diane Scott is a native Kentuckian now working in Boston. So tell us about where you are, Diane.
Diane Scott:
Yeah, and my nephew went to Morehead State.
Chris Reeves:
Awesome. That's cool.
Diane Scott:
He's wildlife firefighter. My godson. So I live in Boston and I work at Academy of the Pacific Rim, which people say, "Pacific Rim in Boston?" That's a whole story, but it's a charter school in the Hyde Park neighborhood of Boston, serving students from all over Boston. But mostly we have a high immigrant student population, families from Haiti, Nigeria, Dominican Republic, pretty much all over the place and vast majority first-gen college goers. And I'm also the co-director of college placement there and at Crimson Summer Academy, which is a program, a three-year residential program in the summers that Harvard University runs for high achieving low income students who will be first-gen college goers as well.
Lee Coffin:
Awesome. And very adjacent to the work Erica Rosales does in Los Angeles.
Erica Rosales:
Yes. Thank you so much for having me, Lee. I'm so happy to be here with all of you. Erica Rosales, executive director of College Match in Los Angeles. College Match is a nonprofit organization that finds high achieving students in L.A., high achieving students from low income communities who oftentimes come to us... I was listening to you… come to us because they want that American dream, they want that upward mobility and we help them achieve that when we recruit them in their junior year of high school. So they're already coming to us as high achievers and we help them through the college application and financial aid process. And a big piece of that is exposing them to so many great college opportunities across the nation. All of our students, about 180 of them in each cohort, receive a trip to the East Coast. We get to visit colleges, they get SAT prep. And then I think the most important piece of our program is the high touch individualized support from volunteer college advisors. We've been doing this for 20 years.
Lee Coffin:
That's great. Well, and just as we start, thank you, all of you, not just for being on the pod, but for what you're doing because I think people don't always understand the retail person-by-person work that happens in places like where you work. So you're doing really important stuff. Why do you do it? What attracted you to these roles? I mean, Erica, 20 years ago, but for all of you, what gets you out of bed in the morning?
Erica Rosales:
Well, I'll start with this one because for me, my work is very, very personal. I'm a first-gen college graduate. My parents immigrated to this country in the seventies and they came here because they wanted a better life. So I grew up with that story, with that resilience, with that entrepreneurship. And I translated the world for my parents. And that meant that I needed to understand how high school... Well first of all, when I was an elementary school kid, I really believed that those elementary school grades were going to help me get into college. You had to be a good student. And then the next thing is my dad and mom were very honest with me and they said, "We cannot afford to pay for college, so you're also going to have to figure out how to pay for it." I was very fortunate. I put in the work and I had the opportunity to attend Wellesley College, and that changed my life.
And it was on that college campus that I realized that there were so many other students who were just not being matched with the opportunity. I was one of 900 students from my inner city high school that went away that one year. One of 900. So much potential never finds that opportunity. So for me, it's bringing that life passion and my experience so that I can see that success year after year. And our students are going to getting into college and graduating at fantastic rates, and it's not just graduating, they're thriving. They are moving on to careers and really changing their life trajectory, but the life of their families and their community. I pinch myself, I can't believe I get to do this. It's really, really great work.
Diane Scott:
I also feel the same way, Erica. Every morning I'm like, I get to do this work. It's incredible. And it's also deeply personal for me, although for me, I'm kind of not first-gen, half first-gen. I'm from a big Irish Catholic family that's actually originally from Wisconsin and my dad was one of eight, my mom was one of seven, my dad was the sixth of eight and the first one to be able to go to college only because he served in World War II. I'm old. Got to go to the University of Wisconsin on the GI Bill. And my mom, I always say is the smartest person I know that never got to go to college. They lost their farm in rural Wisconsin when she was 11. She went to live and work with another family and she was on her own at 17.
So they raised us very much with those values and to see the difference it made in what they were able to provide for us versus all of our families of cousins and the ways that once my dad had gotten fairly successful, being able to help his own brothers and sisters and our whole extended family. And then I had the great fortune to be able to go to Stanford University and I was assigned to live in the Chicano theme house. My roommate was a Black woman who was from inner city Portland, growing up in public housing. We're still friends to this day. I'm friends with a lot of my friends from the Chicano community. That richness of diverse experiences enhances everyone's learning and I feel very passionate about the work that I do and I'm excited to be here with you all.
Lee Coffin:
Thank you, Diane.
Chris Reeves:
Lee, I sent you an email, I don't know, maybe two weeks ago about a student and she's... I'm not saying you have to admit her, but what I'm saying is she is a hundred percent why I do this. You're going to get me all teared up just thinking about her. She is from the county that my mom's family is from. And the other early applicant you're probably going to see, or your team will see is from the other county that my mom's family is from in eastern Kentucky, two of the poorest counties in the state. The stats on the school, education rates, college going rates, poverty rates, any metric you could have is how to say, as low as it gets, but maybe as a figure of speech, maybe as low as it gets.
And these kids left home to come to our school to seek opportunity, which is what they're doing by sending applications to you and everywhere else they're sending applications. I don't really necessarily have the same personal reasons deep down that Erica and Diane might have, but I joke a lot. That's how I cope maybe with anything. So I'm not good at a lot of things, but I'm good at this and I love doing this and I pinch myself too, everybody. I wake up every day thinking, this is fun. I mean I fully, fully just with my whole heart believe in what we do, what you're doing, what the three of us are doing, and what everyone else with our jobs is doing out there.
Lee Coffin:
Let's start with the definition. I said of myself, I didn't know I was first-gen, I learned later, but when we talk about first-gen college bound, who is that?
Diane Scott:
From my school's perspective, it's a family. We have a lot of families that are very clear, "This is why we came to this country," for the opportunities that are here, not just economically, but education as a vehicle to maximum opportunity. So I think a lot of family hopes and expectations riding on that one teenager. And I love the work like you said, Chris, of helping a teenager navigate who all is along for the ride here.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, I see that all the time when I read files from students from the background we're describing where they'll say, "My parents are recent arrivals to the United States and this is why. The better life that college offered brought us here. And I work hard to achieve that." And I would say as a definition, just to answer my own question, in the college, a first-gen status means you are the child of two parents who did not graduate from college. Someone might've attended and not finished. But the idea is you'll be the first to receive a degree and sometimes it's also you're the first to even go. And that firstness is such an important part of this idea of upward mobility, that you're doing something brave coming out of a family, a community where, like Erica, you said one of 900 of your peers did what you did. And tell us about what kind of personal qualities does that require?
Erica Rosales:
So it's so interesting that you use the word “brave.” We are right now in the middle of recruiting the class of 2027. And when we go out and we recruit and we talk to counselors and people who can nominate students, we use that word a lot. We're looking for a student who is brave because we want to go beyond, yes, there are many students who have the GPA, there are many students who have done the extracurriculars and maybe shown leadership, but the reality is to be the first to leave your community. We really are advocating for students to go beyond their comfort zone. And here in California, we have great, great state schools. So we're hoping that many of our students will consider going to a private school, maybe up north, northern California, most likely out of California. 60% of our students do leave California.
So we are looking for that brave heart. We're looking for that person who can imagine themselves beyond their circumstances. I always tell our staff and our volunteers, we have a very short window to educate and bring this knowledge to the students. They don't understand the intricacies and all the different types of colleges, all the different types of applications that they can use. One of the first myths that we dispel is most of the parents believe you get in, you're getting a scholarship without all the backup forms. So we need to explain to them all the extra steps that need to be taken to get that grant.
Lee Coffin:
I have joked that if I write a memoir about life as a dean, I'm going to call it I Didn't Know What I Didn't Know. We assume everybody knows these are the elements of application. This is the way you sign up for the different forms. And a lot of people don't.
Diane Scott:
But we explicitly use the “knowledge is power” slogan, if you will. We're going to teach you how all of this works. And then there's the checklist out there. But sometimes for first-gen students, that's overwhelming to look at that whole thing. So also we're going to partner with you to do each thing in its time, it is doable and we will help you and your family navigate all of it.
Lee Coffin:
What are the barriers? When you start working with a student for whom this is a new adventure, what do you often bump up against as you're helping someone develop a list, figure out where to apply, tell their story, get everything in. Where are the speed bumps or walls?
Chris Reeves:
My students come on and maybe the first things they might say to me is "I"... And part of the reason they come to our school, but, "I don't want to pay for college," or, "I don't want debt when I graduate."
And they think at first that the place you find that is at Morehead State or at the University of Kentucky or University of Louisville does a great job for our students and the talks of Dartmouth or any school in the QuestBridge list who has great financial aid. It's a surprise to them sometimes that these schools are the ones that perhaps they should be trying for or at least give it a shot. They don't think they can afford that until the counseling and eventually word gets out. Now we get Dartmouth apps all the time, and I want to do a quick thank you to Lee, you, your team, Jackie, everybody there because the way you treat our students... Make me tear up again. What's up with this episode? But you all gave our kids belief.
Lee Coffin:
I think that's probably the biggest barrier, right? Is people just don't think it's doable.
Erica Rosales:
I think something that is a barrier, and I try to describe this to the parents, the students want to go to college, of course. High achievers, low income, they get the information. But the other piece that we often forget to tap into is that they are young adults. They are children who want to make their parents proud. So that's where sometimes the brand name, meaning if the parents don't know the name of the college, it can get in the way of the student making the best choice for them. And I'm going to include Dartmouth in that list because for most of our immigrant parents, "Dartmouth, what is that?" Or even when I got into Wellesley, my parents were like, "Wow, Wellie, what? What is that? I've never heard of this."
Lee Coffin:
So how do you work past that?
Erica Rosales:
So for us, and I think once... I'm going to sing your praises again, Lee and your team, we've had people from the financial aid team get on a Zoom and talk to a parent, and then you also bring evidence. So those pictures of our students who are from College Match from Los Angeles, who ended up being... I'm thinking about one particular student who ends up being valedictorian at Dartmouth College from Garfield High School. And you can show parents that this is what's going to happen if they take the leap, if they allow their child... I do say allow, because at the end sometimes it is convincing those parents that it's okay for them to go to Middlebury, to go to Wellesley, to go to Dartmouth, places that they've never heard of, but they're going to be taken care of, their children will graduate and they're going to graduate with a career and a better life.
Lee Coffin:
Well, I think you just gave advice, news you could use to my peers working at colleges who are saying, "We'd love more students from first-gen backgrounds." And I think what we're hearing from two of our three counselors is retail counts. You have to roll up your sleeves and do the work and translate higher ed into a language that people can understand. Not talking down to people, but giving parents especially evidence to feel comfortable.
I was in a presentation last week for a new communications vendor and they were talking about how a lot of families who are first-generation college look at things like selectivity as a way of understanding which colleges are “good,” quote-unquote “good” or not. So the lower the admit rate is a sort of a proof point that, "Oh, this is where I ought to look because it's hard to get into." Do you see that? Is that a fair way of a family thinking about options or is that a barrier too? Is there's a perception there that gets in the way. Diane, you're in a city with a lot of colleges. What happens?
Diane Scott:
I am. And the summer work I do is based at Harvard. So I would say it can often come down to name recognition even for highly selective private, full-need meeting colleges. And an example would be that Boston is one of the cities that partners with the Posse Foundation, which is a national organization that helps first-gen students go through an early decision commitment, but as a group and get support for each other and from a Posse trainer on campus as well as alums. It's a phenomenal, phenomenal program, outstanding four-year graduation rates from all of these institutions. And a barrier we face is often having families not wanting a student to go forward with the nomination because we've never heard of these colleges and all of us have heard of them. The Boston partners are Bucknell Center in Kentucky, and I'm proud that our valedictorian is a finalist for center right now.
Bryn Mawr, Union and Rutgers, Rutgers is an interesting curveball there as a public institution. But I would say we often have... It's Ivy or it's maybe the top end state public we've heard about, and I don't know if that's a uniquely Boston area because of all the incredible higher ed institutions in the New England area or if you all share that as well, Chris and Erica. But even to say name recognition, they are phenomenal schools profiled in hidden Ivys or colleges that changed lives or the Fiske Guide that so many of our families have never even heard of. So I think it's back to an exposure piece around what that college experience can be, and our sales pitch, for lack of a better word, often has to be showing people with the net price calculator that can be affordable for your family.
Lee Coffin:
Let me shift gears just a sec and talk to the seniors in high school who are working on their applications. So some of them are in your schools and programs, others don't have an Erica, Chris or Diane close at hand. So we're talking to them especially that say, "We're going to give you some tool kits." Let's start with explaining to a first-gen kiddo why that identity matters. Why would a college want me? With that perspective. Because I'm asking that question because I think knowing why you matter is an opportunity to then say, "Oh, now I know how to introduce myself."
Chris Reeves:
A college knowing that you're a first-generation student, I think that says something about your tenacity, your grit, your desire for more. And they get a lot of applicants at these schools who, I don't know the right way to put this or the appropriate way to put this, but in my world it's like maybe you were born on third base and you had a lot of advantages sitting right there for you. A lot of opportunities. Parents, grandparents went to college.
But as a first-generation student, first-generation applicant, I just think it says a lot about your character and who you are, and I think a college needs to know that. I have a little section on the end of my letters I write, I have a lot of first-generation students at the Craft Academy. Every single student has left home to come to our school and seek out opportunities. And I even have a little note on mine. Colleges often ask me, "Do the students take advantage of what's available to them?" It is easy for my school to say they did. To demonstrate that you are seeking opportunity, I think says a lot about who you are.
Erica Rosales:
What I'm thinking about Lee, one, my mind went back to my personal statement. I still remember my personal statement and when I applied to college, that was a time I don't really think we used the term first-gen. I mean my common app, I mailed it in, right? It's not...
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. Well, Erica, just as an interesting fact, Dartmouth did not start to track first-generation as a cohort until the class of 2010. So that was in the mid... They applied in 2006. So just as an example of anybody before that, you certainly were first-gen, but it wasn't something we were managing as a cohort.
Erica Rosales:
I remember writing my personal statement about being my family's translator. I remember even including some lines in Spanish, but I think part of that was because I was so sure of who I was and what I wanted to bring to the world. But I think I was so sure, because there were so many unknowns. Growing up in East Los Angeles where everybody else looks like you, it gives you a certain type of confidence. It really does. So I wanted to show the world what that meant. So that's what I try to tell my students now. It's like, "You are brilliant. You belong at these institutions because these institutions need your perspective. Diversity is so important in the learning process."
My students besides, yes, they're first-gen, but they are brilliant and some of them are geniuses and they have these great ideas and they see the world the way they do because of their perspective, because of how they've grown up. So please give that gift to the world. So that's what I try to get across to our students. And please write about that story. Like, "How did you come up with that idea?" And it's interesting because many of my students, because they're surrounded by first-gen students, they're surrounded by people whose parents haven't gone to college. They don't think their story is that special, right? They think, "Everybody else is going to write about this." I'm like, "No, no, but how do you see the world? Yes, you can write about your circumstances, but what is it that you're going to give a college?"
That's what they're looking for.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, no, and that's, in the legal framing, that's called life experience. You may not see that your life has that specialness to it because as you said, Erica, everybody around you is experiencing a very similar life and culture. But as you leave that place, what are you bringing with you? And let's stay on this. What essay topics do you counsel your kids to lean into so that as they're telling their story, they don't overlook something really important
Erica Rosales:
For us, we don't pick a topic and our students spend months reflecting on who they are, what their strengths are. Their advisor really gets to know them. And it's that person who helps them see that, "Hey, the fact that you're translating or the fact that you're waking up on a Saturday to go help your parents set up the fruit stand, that's important."
Lee Coffin:
That's a topic.
Erica Rosales:
"That's a topic right there, let's write about that." But oftentimes it's a lot of questioning back and forth, reflecting, and it's also helping build that confidence to tell that story.
Lee Coffin:
Chris, what bubbles out of rural America?
Chris Reeves:
A lot of different directions. At a STEM high school like I'm at, a lot of times they'll just geek out about the thing they like to study the most. So it ends up being a little more academic in nature. One of the coolest lines I heard this year is a kid, sorry Lee, you're not getting this one. Maybe I'll send it to you separately. He says, just a one quick line that he could see the Milky Way from his backyard, and it just kind of gave me chills. So there's a lot of what it's like to be at home. I read a really cool one lately just talking about roads and the-
Lee Coffin:
Roads?
Chris Reeves:
Roads. Roads, windy roads lead you through the county. There was a line kind of like, it almost feels like they're meant to keep you there, but then you leave the roads and go out. And then what happens when you come back on those roads, that sort of thing. Beautiful story. But a lot of what it's like to be at home and what values that has brought to just you as a person, right?
Erica, I just love hearing other people talk about that personal reflection. It is not pick a topic and write an essay for college. That does not work. The personal reflection is so, so important. And isn't it the perfect time to do it? You're about to transition out of high school to college. Why not think about who you are as a person, where you come from, how you got to where you are right now and reflect on that? It seems like the perfect task for this time of your life.
Lee Coffin:
And as the college is meeting you, it helps me say, "Ah, I see the person who would sit in my classroom or in my residence hall and share."
Diane Scott:
Absolutely my favorite part of the process. I mean, I love writing letters too on their behalf, but I love working with teenagers, helping tell their story. And we also don't guide any particular topic. We'll show them the common app topics, but say college admissions officers don't care. The last one is always topic of your choice. And what I want is for them to just put something out there and then we have a conversation. So I'm thinking about a young man right now that I'm working with who in his, what he wrote said, "Time at home for me was often really lonely."
He didn't say more about that. He was saying other things. But I said, "Tell me about that. What was that like for you?" And so if a student is very stuck, we'll sometimes say, "What is it like to be you in your family or in your community?" And write about that. And we'll often say, "Think about, you're putting together this application, right? You're going to have your transcript with the courses you took and the grades you got. You're asking teachers to reflect on you. I'm going to write a letter for you. If you could talk to that admissions officer, what would you need them to know about you as an applicant that your application would be incomplete without?"
Lee Coffin:
Well, and to go back to Chris's point about his kids writing about academics, listeners, you can connect academics to your life. You could say, "I live in Appalachia and I love roads and I'm interested in being a civil engineer to design better roads, to connect the communities where I live." Or you're living in Hyde Park in Boston and you have an interest in pre-med and you're connecting place and what you study in a way that gives the college a way of saying, "Oh, if you join us and you study that, this is how you might contribute when you're done." I mean, these are all really lovely topics for someone to share.
Erica Rosales:
I want to uplift something, especially for students who don't have the help, who may not be part of a program. The writing process, obviously it is very personal because it's something that you are writing, but I encourage students to seek help, find somebody else, whether it's a peer, somebody else in your network who can provide the questions, who can ask you to expand on one of your topics. And I bring this up... So my daughter just finished the college application process, so she's high school class of 2026, but she didn't want my help. She made sure. And I was like, "That's fine, but as long as you had somebody else helping you." And she let me read the final essay that she wrote and I was like, "Okay, that's actually, it's good." Ready to submit. But she did get help from somebody else. And also there is the thing as too many cooks in the kitchen, so don't get help from too many people. Find a person who can help you.
Diane Scott:
I would say for a lot of especially low-income students of color who are first-gen college goers, we hear this a lot that, "I'm supposed to tell some kind of sob story." That's the narrative out there and I'm like, "Absolutely not. We're supposed to share something about you that you want to share and that can look so many different kinds of ways."
Lee Coffin:
Where's that coming from? A sob story? What's the genesis of that misperception?
Diane Scott:
I'm not sure where that comes from in the media or the ethos that students are hearing, but I think there's a sense of, because of not having had some of the generational advantages that, "That's what I have to hit on in order to get in." It's a, "Poor me. I haven't had this." And so that's the narrative to share to make sure you get that opportunity.
Lee Coffin:
So the narrative of overcoming.
Diane Scott:
Yeah. And sometimes there is that, but it troubles me when students come and start with that's what they think that you all want. And we know you want an authentic sense of that student. And just quick example that you were talking about a student growing up in Hyde Park who has an academic interest that is personal in nature, that's another one from this year, a young woman with whom I'm working who wrote about growing up in Barbados.
She came to this country when she was nine, but they had a sort of family compound of houses that were together and there was a shared yard and they had fruit trees, and that was a part of their connection, that was a part of healing from some things that happened. And she wants to study environmental science, and she said she sees more and more now in urban Boston, why is it that low-income urban neighborhoods in the United States often don't have access to green space, don't have access to that? And she literally wrote this beautiful line of, "I'm seeing the spaces that gave my family peace and healing being damaged, and I want to be part of helping make that change." And that I think speaks to Erica's point of all the perspectives are needed if we're trying to solve some of the world's tough problems through higher ed, through that exposure that will give careers that are solving climate change issues and other global problems.
Lee Coffin:
So you're advising students to think beyond the sob story, and I would even say set aside the sob story and say, "What part of the optimistic part of me can I bring forward?" Whatever that is. It could be food, it could be your sense of humor, it could be you love to sing, what are you doing? And you did that with the fruit garden. It's like those are all really important perspectives that help us gather the evidence to say, "This is a life I now have met."
Chris Reeves:
I still want students to be honest though. So the fine line I'm trying to go with mine are they will say, "I don't want to trauma dump." Trauma dumping is, that's what I don't know if everyone else calls it that. That's what my students call it, is trauma dumping.
Lee Coffin:
Never heard that.
Diane Scott:
That's the sob story thing, right? Yeah, we hear that.
Chris Reeves:
Yeah. But I've told them, "It's okay to be honest. I mean, if you need to talk about something that has gone on in your life," I have several students. I mean, this is Appalachia, so we have a lot of opioid crises type things going on. So I have many students who have dealt with that in their personal lives. I don't want them to avoid that. I just think if you're optimistic and you show how you've grown and how you have changed as a result of that, but I don't want them to avoid it. I think their instinct is to avoid it altogether. So I'm trying to find this fine line of like, "Look, you got to be honest. I mean, it's okay to be honest about what's happened in your life. No, I don't want you harping on it either. I don't want you spending the whole time talking about that, but as just something that maybe the college does need to understand what you've been through and how you've grown from it."
Lee Coffin:
Let's talk about environmental factors. So that's an inside higher ed phrase that my translation would be the circumstances that define the place where you are. So when we meet you, we're meeting you in a local context. You're an applicant in a big pool, but you come from a place. How do we help first-gen students understand that? Their place? That the place matters and could be part of the story they're telling.
Erica Rosales:
College Match students come from about 30 different high schools in Los Angeles, and you would think, "Well, all high school kids in Los Angeles are the same. They're all first-gen." But I think the first piece is the high school that you come from. That's your academic context. So there is a space for the counselor to explain the context of the high school in the letter of recommendation, in the school profile. Most students don't know that there's a school profile. Most students don't know that that information is collected. So to kind of decipher that and see where you fit in, in that context. So that's the first context that I think is sometimes difficult for students to truly comprehend.
Lee Coffin:
But yeah, I raised it because a fair question to ask a teacher or a guidance counselor to say, "Hey, tell me about this place where I am. What's the norm?" I mean, we'll see things like what percentage are first-gen, how many are on free and reduced price lunch? How many of them are X miles from campus when they have to go long distances? And what are the norms at your school? I mean, this is getting me to a question on testing, which we're in a space where I would say the majority of places today remain test optional. So a student could determine, do I include a score or not? There are some places that have reinstated a requirement for testing.
Let's talk about testing a little bit. So when we read testing, we look at the local norm. So we'll look at a student and say, "This person has an 1190 on the SAT or a 27 on the ACT. What's the norm at that high school?" So if a student is attending a high school where the mean or the average is an 890 and they have an 1190, they're 300 points higher than the norm, that's a really great score even when it might be lower than the average of college shares as its cost profile. So that's an example of environmental context that we're looking at place and saying, "This score from that place gives us an important measurement of a student's academic capacity." How do you counsel students around testing and whether to include a score or not?
Chris Reeves:
I think I may need to go back to training and learn from you because my students are, again, they like to nerd out. So they are all in the common data sets. As soon as I turn them loose on common data sets, I just don't hear from them for months.
Lee Coffin:
They get lost in the numbers.
Chris Reeves:
They get... Oh yeah, but that's what they use not in context. And my situation, it's unique because they probably need to look at the context of their home high schools, not the Craft Academy. And I'm sure you all do too. When you think about us in that way, maybe I need to coach a little differently to be honest with you, because we're looking at your middle 50s, what we're looking at flat out a hundred percent, we're looking at your middle 50 and making an assessment based on those numbers.
Lee Coffin:
And we stopped reporting our middle 50% this year. So we are now saying what percentage of the class had a score above the 75th percentile of their high school? And the answer for us was 90% had a score above the high school's 75th percentile. Now you don't know what that is, but that means you have to go talk to your guidance counselor and say, "Oh, 1210 and I'm a 1400. That's a really good score." Because what we found when we did, Chris, the other way was people would say, "Well, your average is X." And I'm being careful not to say what the average is because I'm trying to change the conversation and they would say, "My scores aren't good enough." It's like, "Your scores are really good." You're looking at a national norm versus a local norm.
Chris Reeves:
No, we would've students not submit something that... I mean-
Lee Coffin:
That was really good.
Chris Reeves:
Yeah.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah. For that reason.
Diane Scott:
And I have to say thank you, Lee, because that is the kind of inspired approach that really makes it believable to students. We would say that. If you are several standards and standard deviations above the mean here, that's a reasonable score. And students don't believe it until the admissions landscape changes to really reflect that. That's brilliant, brilliant approach.
And we try to, because we have the ratio we do, we try to provide any score information in context. Thinking of a student this year, this was our first go back to universal testing, suggesting everyone take a shot at it in the junior class and see how we go and then advise from there. Our outliers are still not in what would be the typical range at Dartmouth, for example, right? But the young man who's going to be probably our valedictorian or salutatorian scored several points... We do ACT. Scored several points above anyone else, and on the reading got a 32 and I think it's incumbent upon me because I can to say in my letter that puts him in the top 7% of test takers nationally, A 32 on reading. And these immigrant parents and a non-college background. That is extraordinary. My concern is with all of our passions, the kids who don't have access to counselors and ratios like ourselves.
Lee Coffin:
Yeah, that's why we pod. I had an email last year from a student in Paraguay of all places who is a first-gen student who was on an episode last season. His name was Luis. But he wrote me and he said, "I Googled for information. Your pod came up, I listened to all your episodes and you were my guidance counselor." So that's why we're doing this episode. So that the magic of this thing called the internet pops Admission Beat into earbuds where it can do some good. So if this is you, high school senior, what we're advising you as you put together your application over the next month plus is to pay attention to your life experience. Sketch out on a piece of paper, "What are the different things that define me?" I spend all Sunday at church. That's interesting. Tell me more about religion as an important piece of your person, or you love to cook with abuela.
What recipes has she shared with you and how is food and an important part of your personal narrative? I read an essay years ago from a young woman who talked about her grandmother had recently passed away and they were cleaning out the house and found a cookbook that the grandma had written in Polish because she was an immigrant from Poland. And the student realized like, "Wow, all of our holidays were filled with the food grandma would make from this cookbook, but none of us speak Polish." It's a beautiful essay about a cookbook. A cookbook seems like such a simple thing, and it is, but in that family, it was powerful. And as a reflection of the student's life and her resourcefulness that she got it translated, this is where AI helped her. And now this cookbook in Polish is an ongoing thing. So kids, as you're thinking about what to write about, no topic is too small and it doesn't have to be this, "Wow, look what I did," for us to notice it.
So as we wrap, what concluding advice do you have for students from backgrounds that are pointing them forward to a place where none of their peers or relatives have gone? When you have a first-gen student or a first-gen adjacent student, I say that there are some students who they're technically not first-gen, their parents have a degree, but usually it's from another country and mom, dad working in 7-Eleven with a master's degree in engineering from Bangladesh. And you're like, "Wow." So you're highly educated, but you're living a very lower income lifestyle here. When you have that person in your office and the door closes and it's November of senior year and they're nervous, let's close with a hug. What do you each say to that kid? Deadline's coming. They haven't applied anywhere.
Chris Reeves:
Maybe something really practical today. It can happen financially. This could be a reality because financial aid and affording it is where it truly ends up making it happen. So let's put that aside. It can happen. The schools want you and apply. You can always say no, I guess if you can't afford it. So send the application, but it really truly can be affordable for you. So go for it. Go for it.
Lee Coffin:
Diane?
Diane Scott:
I'd say you deserve this opportunity. You are bright, curious, motivated, passionate. Context matters. So both look at the context of the colleges, look at affordability issues and look at first-gen supports and look at the questions they're asking so that they will really see you in the process and trust that you sharing your context will matter.
Lee Coffin:
Because if you don't tell us we don't know.
Erica Rosales:
That's right. You need to tell them. Yes. And I tell students that I am so proud of them. I am so proud of all the work you've already done. So hit submit so that you can create a new village of people who will continue to be proud of you and help you fly.
Lee Coffin:
Erica, that was the most poetic way to wrap the episode. Hit submit so you can create a new village of people that help you fly. Love that. Erica, Chris, Diane, thanks for joining me on Admission Beat.
Diane Scott:
Thank you, Lee.
Chris Reeves:
Thank you, Lee.
Lee Coffin:
And to my fellow first-genners and their parents, don't be afraid. And the thing that I will end on is something that might surprise you. I am by far not the only first-gen person who's a dean of admission. Your voice is inside the admission committee. We read your files and more people than you would imagine, nod, and say, "Mm-hmm, I know that story. That was my story." I wanted to have this conversation because I also wanted to put an exclamation point on this idea that upward mobility, social mobility, the American dream, whatever you want to call it, it's real. It's still here. It's still something colleges value. Whether we're looking at low income representation, whether we're looking at first-gen identities, whether that first-gen identity is U.S. or international, all of these voices come together and make a chorus that is the class that joins us every fall, and it's important. So sing your song.
Next week we will be back with another episode of Admission Beat. For now, this is Lee Coffin from Dartmouth College. Thanks for listening.